"Controlling" your Rottweiler.

[cinde33]

I have an 11 month old male, just neutered, named Maximus. I also have an 18 month old, spayed, female Sara. Maximus has been through two obedience classes since we had him as a pup, and Sara has been through one since we adopted her in July. We are scheduled to start again in February for both.

Here's my dilemma:

I can't control my dog when I absolutely have to! Now I am sure this must have something to do with respect, alpha-ness and training....or maybe I'm missing something..... let me present an example.

Maximus is the hardest with this. When he has a mind to something, nothing can deter him from it. Head Strong or blowing me off? Both?

When we go for walks, if he even sees a human and/or a dog, he leaves his heel position and goes nuts. He tugs at his leash and trys to run. At 5'4', 115 lbs, I can BARELY stop him. (He weighs 90 lbs. and has insane brut strength!) In fact, once when I was looking over at my husband while walking, Max noticed a person checking the mail and literally threw me over her car!

Leash correction? Doesn't matter. I can give him a jerk, I could choke him if I wanted to and he still drags me down the street. (I don't choke him BTW :) ) I hold on with all of my might so he doesn't get away and he pulls and pulls. I give him commands but he just bolts. Doesn't pay any mind. However, at the end of the walk, when we get to the door and I mutter 'sit" he obeys perfectly.


Could this be in part that we just got him neutered 2 weeks ago? I know some say that differs with your dogs. I do training sessions, and he knows how to heel, but he turns into an uncontrollable dog every time we walk by. When there is no one around, he heels perfectly.

If I want him to go into a different room or into his kennel when he doesn't want to, I can't physically do it. Sometimes he won't even be lured.

Is it a matter of respect? Or can a rottie be that tunnel-visioned?!

If I left any pertinent info out, please let me know, does anyone else have any trouble with this? Or can wake me up to something?

Thanks, Cind :)

[WorkinDogz]

It's a matter of being consistant and reinforcing 100% of the time any and all commands you give.

Is there a reason why you're "asking" or "bribing" your dog to move the bloody hell out of your way; or go into another room???? Are you afraid of your dog??? Does he have aggression problems?????

How about......take him by his collar and MOVE HIM. It's not up to the dog to make the decisions.......and you're seeing the RESULTS of his BEING allowed to tell you what to do with his failure to respect your commands!

Toughen up Fluffy ;) and get on the stick. It's time to take control of your own situation and do it through training.

Back to classes and get down right serious about your training!

[Soapie&Buddy'sMom]

Originally posted by cinde33
If I want him to go into a different room or into his kennel when he doesn't want to, I can't physically do it. Sometimes he won't even be lured.

Some of the things that you described could go for my 2.5 yr old Buddy - mainly that you can't control your dog when you really need to. I started one-on-one obedience lessons earlier this month (the ONLY New Years Resolution I kept! :p ) and one thing the trainer told me really stood out - she said I was bribing Buddy rather than rewarding him, and that was not the best thing to do. (She knew I was doing it because Buddy wouldn't go into her house and I threw a treat in to bribe him to go in, he STILL wouldn't go - talk about not controlling your dog when you need to!!!) So now I am always thinking about REWARD, not BRIBE. Buddy gets a treat or a pet when he does the right thing, and only then.
I'm sorry to say that the trainer had a whole theory behind this and why bribing was not good, but I can't remember. She gave me so much information my head is still spinning.

Another thing, there is a reason that your dog gets out of control, I don't know what that is for you and your dog but for me and Buddy it is that he is fear-aggressive and doesn't know what he should do when we encounter certain dogs and people. He sometimes thinks he is supposed to react and isn't comfortable with that so he gets aggressive (or something like that, again I'm paraphrasing the trainer.) What I have to learn to do is teach Buddy alternate behaviors and fall-back positions and to look to ME for how to react instead of freaking out. Easier said than done, that is why I have another one-on-one with the trainer this Saturday!

Good luck!

[RottiMomCT]

Originally posted by cinde33
Here's my dilemma:

I can't control my dog when I absolutely have to! Now I am sure this must have something to do with respect, alpha-ness and training....or maybe I'm missing something..... let me present an example.

What sort of collars are you using on your walks?? If it's a plain buckle collar, get a pinch (prong collar) and have an experienced person show you how to fit it and use it properly. OR, get a choke collar and follow the same advice above (proper fit & useage).

Ben was a meatball on walks until he LEARNED how to walk properly on leash. He was corrected for pulling and was never allowed to go where HE wanted to go. *I* am in charge when out walking, unless it's a potty time walk, or he is on a leash walking on a wooded path with me.

One good 'pop' with the prong collar and Ben suddenly remembers that I am there! I have had to use a good hard correction on him only about 3 times in the past 2 yrs due to him being a butthead and trying to chase or grab something he was not supposed to (one being a rollerblader...the other two were squirrels). After the rollerblader incident, when the young man was headed back our way, I told him to 'Leave It', gave him a tiny pop on the collar as a reminder and I swear he thought about trying it again, but he gave me a look like "I better not, huh Mom...". Of course, as the guy came by, I praised the heck out of him for not attempting a rollerblader ambush and we continued on our walk.

Once you get back into obed classes, it's a matter of keeping up with it, every day, even after classes are completed. Obedience is a lifelong thing in a dogs life...just as your commitment to the dog to keep him safe and healthy.

It sounds as if he doesn't respect you and he's being allowed to get away with it.

Like WorkingDogz said...Toughen Up...your dogs will love you for it!!

[cinde33]

Thanks for your responses, guys.

Is there a reason why you're "asking" or "bribing" your dog to move the bloody hell out of your way; or go into another room???? Are you afraid of your dog??? Does he have aggression problems?????

How about......take him by his collar and MOVE HIM

Like I said, I can't. He pulls back with such a strength, I'm not kidding! I seriously can't physically move him and he could care less if he's being choked. I'm not afraid of Max at all. He had food aggression problems when he was a pup, but hasn't displayed that behavior for some time now. He just "acts stubborn" and won't move. I try not to "bribe" and I don't "ask"- I command, I tell, but he just looks at me. I can prod him, pull him, try to pick him up (can't) push his behind with my foot to get him going and he just lays glued to the floor. I quit doing the bribe and picked up all of his toys and went in the other room and ignored him for a few moments. He got up all happy-go-lucky and we tried it again. "Kennel." I said. He laid down and we did it again. Wouldn't move. (And he does understand "kennel".)

I do mini-training sessions every day, and they both behave almost perfectly. But afterwards, they slip to about 75%. Should I cut out ALL of the treats I use in training? I cut them down to only two or three already.

S&B's Mom, your trainer makes sense on the bribing tactics, I completely understand that and thanks. It's me coping out because of my frustration. As far as Max's behavior on walks, he doesn't seem fear aggressive at all when it comes to people or pets. When he does meet someone it is wiggle-butt action and kisses and he gets so excited he pees. He's really good with strangers. Can a dog "want" to meet people that much? LOL

We used a prong before and they didn't work. I quit using them along time ago because Max would pull no matter what the cost, and hearing him gasp for air and choke himself was too much for me. We switched to a choke collar, which my other dog Sara has reacted to very well. I never have to jerk her. When she pulls ahead she feels the pressure and backs off. With Max, you could (not that I do) take the thing pull it tight as you can and wrap it around him a few more times and he wouldn't care. We've done the hard "pops" on him and he will cease his pull for about 1 second and go right back to strangling himself by pulling as hard as he can to the destination - the person ahead of us or behind us.

Other than that on the walk, he heels perfectly. It's only when we see people or animals. And he doesn't refuse to go into the kennel all the time. Not very often.

When you guys say toughen up what do you mean? Should I not only pop him with the collar but pop him on the butt with my fist? I give a good tough "NO!" which the only time he doesn't respond to it is during walking and seeing people and pets. I say No! give a pop and try to make him sit. He still goes nuts. Does being tough mean yelling at him at the time? I'm not the delicate soft spoken type. But this guy in only a few things won't obey me. ???? Everything else he is rediculously smart and obedient.

I'm having a personal trainer come out this weekend on Sunday. If you guys have anything else helpful for me, I'd appreciate it. And I'll keep the other post in my thoughts. Thanks!

:) :)

[WorkinDogz]

cindee.....cindee...cindee.... :(

I have news for you..... I'm 117lbs and 5' 8" tall. I'm no body builder and have (self admitted) very little upper body strength. (can't do even one push-up. ) Strength has nothing to do with moving your dog. Respect has everything to do with it. Manners have everything to do with it. Training.....has everything to do with it.

Your dog.....doesn't do what you would like him to do...because he DOESN'T HAVE TO. You've done an outstanding job conditioning him that if he doesn't wanna; he doesn't have to because you won't reinforce anything you say. It's quite simple in his mind....and he's RIGHT.

"Prong collar didn't work". BS. They DO work; 100% of the time if they are used correctly and by someone who knows what they're doing. When they are used correctly; they are a SELF CORRECTING training tool....YOU don't even have to do the work..the DOG receives the correction when HE to not strain against the lead. The only time they fail is when the human end of the lead fails. Period. (That's right folks.....I did go way out on that limb and say THEY WORK 100% of the time and I'll stand by that 110%.)

Toughen up means.....HE'S A DOG.....You are not. It's HIS JOB to live by the rules of the HUMAN.....not the other way around.

A trainer is an excellent idea.....and please... lose the "I'm a fragile female who owns a strong dog" thing........ Learn how to handle your dog and you can work a 240lb intact male Mastiff around 10 bitches in season.

[damp]

I agree with you WD…

As an “undersized” woman myself, I had to stick to mini poodles, IF controlling a dog is about the handlers physical strength.

Very often I am asked, how I can manage such a big dog, and what I would do if he decided to run away with me and my answer is: “I will give him a hell, sit or down command"… and “I may be small but I have a big mouth!!!” ;)

[cinde33]

WD, thanks for the response.

I was shown by a trainer to use the prong. I am willing to accept that perhaps we weren't instructed correctly or perhaps we didn't soak it all in. The our trainer coming this Sunday had told me once that they do not work because the place where they hit the nerves are in the larger part of the neck muscle and aren't effective. Based on your 110% remark, I should asume she doesn't know how to correctly use it either? ;)

I hear what you are saying. We need to go back to the basics of our dogs respecting us 100%. I feel that is now my #1 task, rearrange the priorites a bit, right? I gots ya.

I didn't mean to come off as fragile, LOL! You are sooo harsh! :D I was trying to make clear his strength but through all the posts especially yours I see that if you start over with teaching respect first, I won't have to lose my cool and manhandle my dog while giving myself a hernia - am I right?

Thanks for that. This approach gives me a lot to think about for when our trainer comes and I'll have to look into the proper fitting of the prong collar. :)

I also realize his youth too and have read many posts of "testing" and I think part of that is going on too.

Thanks again, Cind

[WorkinDogz]

Originally posted by cinde33
WD, thanks for the response.

I was shown by a trainer to use the prong. I am willing to accept that perhaps we weren't instructed correctly or perhaps we didn't soak it all in. The our trainer coming this Sunday had told me once that they do not work because the place where they hit the nerves are in the larger part of the neck muscle and aren't effective. Based on your 110% remark, I should asume she doesn't know how to correctly use it either? ;)

Yes; it's safe to assume that! IF the prong is properly fitted and used they WILL "work".

You need to keep looking for another trainer cause the one you picked doesn't have a bloody CLUE where the prong collar even GOES on the neck of the dog!

Harsh? Maybe ;) But.......when you've worked your proverbial a$$ off as a female in a male dominated sport.......you take grrrrrrrrreat offense to the "I'm a girl" thing :D

Physical stature has NOTHING to do with the effective handling of even the strongest dog.

[rottie597]

I'll vouch for the prong collar as well. In the beginning of Cally's training I did not use one because my ignoramus of an ex-husband vetoed it as "cruel" despite my very knowledgeable trainer recommending it. During this time I was known as the "flying neighbor"...winging through the air behind her galloping rottweiler. Finally, I excommunicated the ignorant ex, bought a prong, trained with it and now have a completely compliant canine companion ( no matter what we see on our walk) who no longer throws my 5'1 105 around like a rag doll;)

[RottiMomCT]

Originally posted by WorkinDogz
"Prong collar didn't work". BS. They DO work; 100% of the time if they are used correctly and by someone who knows what they're doing. When they are used correctly; they are a SELF CORRECTING training tool....YOU don't even have to do the work..the DOG receives the correction when HE to not strain against the lead. The only time they fail is when the human end of the lead fails. Period. (That's right folks.....I did go way out on that limb and say THEY WORK 100% of the time and I'll stand by that 110%.)

I agree 400% WorkingDogz! My mother in laws big lug of a 130 lbs male would pull her down the stairs EVERY morning and she (FINALLY!!) asked me to help her try to get him under control.

I went downstairs, got Ben's prong collar and put it on Baker. I did the exact same thing that mom in law does every morning...grabbed a handfull of dog cookies, opened the door to let the other three dogs out (which infuriates me to no end!), BUT, I told Baker to "SIT!" and "Wait!" before we even went out the door.

We got to the bottom of the stairs and he tried to bolt to go in the yard, I corrected him (he was NOT happy about it!) and turned back towards the stairs. We went back to the yard and did a few turns and he didn't pull once.

Mom in law and I, along with Ben and Baker, walked out the front door, up and down the street a few times, and he was quite well behaved...and she didnt want to use a prong collar for fear of hurting his neck (when he came into rescue he had a collar embedded in his neck, still has the scar...nasty) but the prong collar sits about 2 inches above his scar.

Well, I wish I could say that it lasted and they are still using it, but, alas, she's back to screaming at him when he drags her out the door :( ...I guess it was worth a shot!

So, YES, when properly fitted, a prong collar makes a world of difference as a training tool....so does continued training..every day...even if only for 10-15 minutes a day total. I also think that your tone of voice and stance makes a big difference in how the dog perceives you in the 'pack order'.

Good luck! :)

[rottnvegas]

Cindee, this is not your fault, it is the moron trainers you have been hiring. These trainers sound like those hacks at Petsmart. All treat based training. This training is fine if you are always going to have a pocketful of treats and don't care if your dog listens under distraction and you want your dog to look at you as a treat dispenser and not a leader. Well, you get my drift. Sometimes corrections are a very neccasary part of your getting your dog to listen to you. Any knuckle head can get a dog to do obedience in your living room, it's when the dog will respond under heavy distraction is the true test. I have yet to see a very sharp obedience trained dog that has not had any correction in it's training. The addage applies here: One strong, harsh correction is better than 100 whispered "no, baby stop that, mommy or daddy doesn't want you do to that". Good luck.. you sound like you have a normal male rott that will push you as far as he can.

[cinde33]

Thanks, I'm going to try the prong collar again. I searched on the internet on how to properly use one. They should be a bit higher on the neck than a regular collar, correct?

rottnvegas, yeah it has been frustating with trainers. None of them seem to know how to handle a "big" dog! The trainer we hired who is coming this weekend, feels the same way about treats as in "you can have a perfect training session everytime if you're shoving treats in his mouth after every command" which seems to be our case! She also believes that corrections are not bad either. She told me before that you 1. give your command firmly, don't ask 2. the dog has 2 seconds to comply and if he doesn't give a jerk and a strong "No!" and wait 2 seconds for him to comply. I can't remember if she gives the command again or keeps with the "No."

At first I thought that was too harsh (now I know I can't coddle my dogs) but giving corrections and shouting "No!" 65 times a day, I thought it would stress them too much. What kind of life is it if I'm yelling "NO!" all day? Now I might be starting to come around on it. That and the prong collar.

It just seems like everytime we turn around one trainer thinks we are cruel insane people the others too soft or we aren't doing this right or this method is better - you get my drift. Anyway, thanks for the help, seems the prong collar is hands down everyone's fav....:)

[rottnvegas]

Cindee, I wish you all of the luck in the world. The trainer's that are saying you are being too harsh are full of bull. I look at results, not opinions. In regards to the prong collar, yes it does need to be high up on the neck.....In response to not wanting to yell no 65 times a day, that is the point exactly, you make it count a couple of times and soon your dog will get it and you won't be correcting him anymore. You will be much happier and so will your furry pal because he will know without a doubt what you want from him....

[WorkinDogz]

Well rottnvegas; you haven't learned the "how to's" of motivational dog training and it doesn't appear that you're interested in learning that either.]

I will say; that if you attend any Schutzhund trial...whether it be club level, National or World......chances are EXTREMELY GOOD that every dog out there posting V scores in obedience; have had their FOUNDATION layed with food-reward-based motivational training.

Now; NONE of those dogs are rewarded ONCE during the obedience routine......which incidently is quite long and takes approximately 15 minutes (not including the long down) to execute and performed with a good attitude, real close to what ANYONE would expect from their dog in the ACCURACY department and WITH attention.....which makes distractions something that the dog don't give a rip about.....because he's WORKING.

That being said.......corrections have an absolute place in dog training......but; it has been proven over and over and over again that it's NOT in the "teaching phase" of obedience......but rather in the PROOFING phase.

How is this proven? The DOG tells the story.....on every command.....how he was trained :)

cindee.....

You still need to keep looking for another trainer......you haven't done any better with this one IMHO than with the others. Sorry Girlfriend.