"Controlling" your Rottweiler.

[Soapie&Buddy'sMom]

Cinde I have to agree that your trainer doesn't sound too good.

The food thing is suspect to me - I believe in the reward v. bribe (you know!) and so what if it's food, or petting, etc. --- food works really well. no i don't think you should rely SOLELY on food, but to discount it completely is something I don't understand.

Also, i really wonder about the 2 seconds and NO! instruction.
in fact I used to think that (probably from a book I read) and maybe, for some dogs, it's okay. but my trainer told me that Buddy is a little slow. No, not stupid, but just a little slow to react and that I have to give him time.
One reason she said, could be that like many fear-aggressive dogs, he would rather do nothing than do the wrong thing, so he needs a second or two more to think it over. Things have worked out much better around here since I've started giving Buddy more than 2 seconds to obey (and thinking that when he didn't obey in 2 seconds either I or he was doing something wrong).
And in truth, now he is obeying much faster! he is even doing "down" right away when in the past that took him a loooooooong time to do.

[rottnvegas]

Workindogz wrote: chances are EXTREMELY GOOD that every dog out there posting V scores in obedience; have had their FOUNDATION layed with food-reward-based motivational training.

Rottnvegas: note key work FOUNDATION...not finished product

Workindogz: ......which incidently is quite long and takes approximately 15 minutes

Rottnvegas: maybe long for a COMPETITION, but a speck of dust in the real world. I do acknowledge competition dogs stick there obedience great, I don't think cindee was going to compete though....this is real world stuff.

Workindogz: That being said.......corrections have an absolute place in dog training......but; it has been proven over and over and over again that it's NOT in the "teaching phase" of obedience......but rather in the PROOFING phase.

Rottnvegas: I think you hit the nail on the head, cindees dog has never been taken through the proofing phase, only the motivational end of training. Now, she needs her dog to respond and it's off in la-la land because it has never suffered a consequence for doing the wrong thing. So, now is the time for her proofing phase with the prong collar. I still stick to my guns and will stand by my statement that motivational Pet Smart training is a JOKE and is taught by hacks.

[Teena]

When having a problem in training, WD is THE person to turn to.
She KNOWS her stuff when it comes to training. I had some minor problems when Axel entered his teenage years. What...i have to do what you say now?? She gave us the direction we needed to take things in hand.
Listen to her & your dog & you will be better for it.:D

[WorkinDogz]

Where do you think cinde's dog is in his training??? AT THE BEGINNING. The foundation. So the "yank and jerk" method you suggested would be COMPULSION based foundational training....wouldn't it.

"Speck of dust"..... oh ok. Fuss is fuss. Platz is platz. I've used the commands more OFF the field than I ever have ON the SchH field and what is really cool.....is IT LOOK THE SAME from the dogs! Wow.....training crossing over to obedience off the field.....not just a concept it DOES.

You mention "real world"....well are you under the impression that competition dogs...or any dog that the owner works with daily...forgets about their training after the competition is over? After the course is over?

PetsMart training might not be the best on the planet....and some places might provide poor training...but...it beats the "bust him till he does it" method hands down.

It DOESN'T MATTER if a person wants to compete with their dog.....their dog should have training uptight enough that they CAN. You won't get nearly as many "real world" FAILURES in obedience if you do.

I'm wondering.....in your training...could YOU platz YOUR dog when he was "on his way" to get the cat, dog, squirrel etc?

[cinde33]

I'm going to cancel her, WD.

But I'm upset. Not at you guys :D but I feel I keep screwing up with my dogs! :( I read, I ask around for good trainers and they tell me this and that and the last trainer I had was wrong, and blah blah blah. If I WAS an EXPERT i wouldn't have to go to these people. It just seems like everytime I research and find out this or that someone comes along and trashes it.

I DO however follow my gut. And I didn't like the 2 second No! correction. Well, I'm out 300 bucks again and need to start over. This trainer was highly recommended by other rottie owners. I've seen their dogs, so well behaved....It seems like right when I feel like I'm doing something right, it backfires or gets worse. Well, not all the time they do do their basic commands very well. Ah, don't pay any mind to me, I'm probably being meladramatic! ;)

I'm just confused. Maximus was a model student in his first obedience class. A good one in his second. I know he is a teen-pup. His first class at 4 months was good, although I didn't beleive in the alpha roll stuff. And one class Max actually tried to bite me. The instructor had devoted the previous class to biting. She turned a blind eye. Needless to say i was embarrased but controlled the situation. The class was treat reward based, good for first time puppies, no? The second class was less on that and more with praise reward. It was basic obedience with long stays and heeling.

How do you know when you are in the proofing?

One example: Our first trainer said that if your dog is doing something "wrong" and you give a strong "NO!" do not praise afterwards if he doesn't continue to do it as it will confuse him. Like if he puts a leg up on the couch to get on. Our other trainer said to praise him a few seconds after the "NO!" if he complys to show you approve of the action. HUH? What should I do? Is either one bad?

I probably sound like an idiot. But i can push my pride aside because I DON"T want to mislead or wrongly teach my dogs how to behave.

Where should I go from here? New trainer, new instruction right away I know. Now I'm confused on what trainer. I'll search the archives. Where should I go from here at home?

[rottnvegas]

Workindogz: Where do you think cinde's dog is in his training??? AT THE BEGINNING.

Rottnvegas: Of course not, why do you think I am recommending corrections??? I never said treats don't have there place, I said, they don't finish the dog, as in being reliable in real world situations. That is where the corrections come in, if I thought she was just starting to train her dog it would not be fair to punish the dog for something it doesn't know.

Workindogz: You mention "real world"....well are you under the impression that competition dogs...or any dog that the owner works with daily...forgets about their training after the competition is over? After the course is over?

Rottnvegas: Are you comparing to Schutzhand to real life? I don't usually find it necassary to get my dog to bring me a dumb-bell that it has distinguished from other dumb-bells due to scent. I hope you are not implying that Schutzhand dogs are as adept in providing protection as a personal protection dog. Schutzhand bites are for show and you know it. The judges are grading more on style than anything else. I don't think Cindee cares as much about style in her pet as you do in your competition dog.

Workindogz: I'm wondering.....in your training...could YOU platz YOUR dog when he was "on his way" to get the cat, dog, squirrel etc?

Rottnvegas: In answer to your question, yes, Hans will do a very quick down when asked. I think this whole thing is blown out of proportion. I never said I don't agree with motivation as a foundation, because I do agree with it. Cindee is not at foundation as her dog will listen to her in the house, it is under distraction she is having problems with. This is where the correction phase would come in. After that, than she needs to proof her dog, in that order. I don't agree with Petsmart training for the simple fact there is not correction or proofing phase. It leaves the dog highly unreliable if you have no treat or the dog goes into prey drive.

[moondog]

Originally posted by WorkinDogz
It DOESN'T MATTER if a person wants to compete with their dog.....their dog should have training uptight enough that they CAN. You won't get nearly as many "real world" FAILURES in obedience if you do.

Oh Boy, do I agree with this one!!!!!!! For the life of me I can't understand why people think training for competition does not relate to companion dogs or vice versa. Didn't sport evolve out of training for "real-life" purposes in the first place? That kind of thinking reminds me of a cartoon I saw.....Dennis the Menace is holding an orange in one hand and a can of orange juice in the other and asks, "Dad, how do they get it out of the can and into the oranges?":D :D

[WorkinDogz]

I'm still really interested to know how whether the bitework in SchutzhUnd and that of the almighty personal protection dog relates to this thread at all. I thought we were talking about obedience........silly me ;)

cinde;

Finding a trainer isn't a small task. I KNOW how hard it is. I'm not entirely sure why you're looking for an individual personal trainer rather than taking a class at an Obedience Club.

Have you looked for AKC/UKC Clubs in your area? They all have classes for those who are interested in competing as well as those who are only interested in the same consistant response to commands as a family pet.

Sit is sit whether you're in the ring or in your livingroom. I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.

Every trainer has their own philosophy and methodology. There isn't one "textbook" way to train a dog; nor will one blanket method train every dog without some modification.

The "slam bam" method DOES train dogs. It also breaks them and paints one UGLY picture of a dog working more out of fear than confidence. There are PLENTY of trainers and owners out there that STILL believe in that mid-evil, close-to-barbaric way of training. Some people refuse to join us in the 21st Century; and their dogs......show it.

You will RARELY get the same exact answers to training problems and methods from trainers. Each of us does things just a little differently. But...you can't allow THAT to deter you from seeking out one that most closely fits the picture that YOU want to paint for your dog.

Some things DO have a *right and wrong* answer. Proper useage of equiptment is one of them. No; I wouldn't work with ANY trainer who blasts a training tool when they don't even know how to FIT one. They'll probably be sorely lacking in OTHER areas as well.

Remember that old song "Looking For Love In All The Wrong Places"? Substitute TRAINER for love and I think you might solve some of your own problems.

Start at the club level and IF your dog needs one-on-one training time with a trainer.....they will be able to help you out more.

[rottnvegas]

Workindogz: Tell YOUR DOG to platz the next time he goes to get into the brawl at the dog park.


Rottnvegas: I don't remember my dog ever going to brawl at the dog park, this has never happened to me. I would think if this situation ever presented itself, a recall would be a little more appropriate. Maybe you can share your insight and experience in regards to downing your dog's when they are going to "brawl".

[WorkinDogz]

And yes...motivational foundation training DOES apply to Cindee...and every other dog.