Question for ALL trainers

[Judy Chrusch]

Hi everyone, I need some advice from experienced dog trainers. Please tell me the pros and cons of the Dominant Down. I have a person who has a 15 month old intact male who has never been formally trained and has just started a class with a trainer who has GSD. She had her first class last night, things went well till the end when she had to put the dog in a Dominant Down. She attempted to put her dog in a down position FIRST but was told NO, she wanted it done from a standing position. This girl was unsuccessful at doing this, became very frustrated and now wants to get rid of the dog bc he growled at her and attempted to bite the husband when he tried at a later time. The dog is a good dog he was just never shown how to behave and calm down, he gets no exercise and the owners have to do what was suggested to them by me and other people who are trying to help with their situation. I posted something about this same dog in the Rescue thread about finding a home for him bc that's what the owner wanted 6 hours ago, now I find out they don't want to get rid of him, so I'm at my wits end with this situation and would like to know about your feeling on that command and I do know it was discussed in past threads. When I had my first rottie in the early 80's we were taught that and we did it and no problem but I can't see basically throwing a dog to the ground which is what you'd probably have to do with some rotties and doing it around strange people and a strange place and never having ANY formal training before and mind you this isn't a mean dog and you can take anything from this dog and has no signs what so ever of aggression therefore didn't think it was necessary to use such harsh treatment. Please give me some insight on this and the best way to show authority after never had done so before. We have a new club we started for the Greater Phila. area so we are trying to help this person out, she has seeked us out. Any advice, help, whatever would be greatly appreciated and now after contacting numerous people about finding a home for this dog, like I said before she's telling me they want to keep him now, go figure. Thankyou for any help you can give me. I want to know different training methods even if you have to PM me.

Judy

[RottiMomCT]

Well, I'm no dog trainer, but i would NEVER use a dominant down unless the situation called for it...for example: On Christams Eve, my male (85lbs) and my mom in laws male (120lbs), both dogs neutered, both living in the same house, decided that that was the last straw in the 'posturing game' they had been playing for a while.

Ben (my boy) defended himself when Baker (mom in laws boy) went at him. I grabbed Ben by the scruff of the neck and immediately pushed him into a down position. He stayed there...not daring to move as I htink he knew 'mommy' was upset. Baker, on the other hand, having on ly been thru basic obedience and not worked with since then (graduated April 2001) attempted to bite when told to lay down and was subsequently pushed to the ground by my father in law. Baker immediatley got up and walked away.

Can you tell who has control over their dog? Can you tell whose dog respects who? Even Baker will not try to push my buttons as I rarely allow him anything for free.

I beleive that it's all in how the dog is trained and if the situation warrants such action. A dog in it's first class will react accordingly if it does not know what's going on. personally, if MY trainer attempted something like that, I'd be out the door faster than you could get my dog off the floor! Unless your dog misbehaves so badly in class that you cannot control him, nobody should be correcting your dog except you!

Like I said at the start of the post...I'm no expert, but that's my thoughts...hope it helps!

[Judi W]

Judy,
I'm sure there are other issues involved with this dog than just a down in class or they would not have been considering getting rid of him. There are many dogs that haven't had formal training, but still don't think that attempting to bite is the answer to being forced to do something they don't like. The dominant down is one with the dog dumped on its back. Are you sure this is what they were asking or were they asking that the dog do a down. Big difference. If the dog was really acting up, the instructor might have wanted that particular dog in a down to take a bit of the uppitiness out of him, but I don't know that, just a possibility. When I have a beginner dog acting aggressively in class, I also want that dog with its belly in the dirt so it doesn't feel so free to be issuing challenges. Is it a "dominant down".... no, but it is a lowering-of-status down.

You've read me enough to know that I do not favor gratituous shakedowns or the so-called dominance downs, but I suspect that there is more involved in this story. I am wondering if perhaps these people are looking for a way out of attending classes with their difficult dog. It is a lot of work for sure. This is where people who are lazy and permissive when raising a pup often end up, which is of course why we harp so much on training. When training and leadership is delayed too long much harsher measures are required to gain control and take back the leadership position. The dog does not relinquish it easily.

[Judy Chrusch]

Thanks for the responses and yes Judi their are other issues with this particular dog but none are the fault of the dog, this I know. Their 4 year old has repeatedly harassed the dog and I found out the husband use to box with the dog with real boxing gloves as a game, hitting in the face, etc. I said that had to stop immediately . I also told her she must get better control of the 4 year old and teach him how to respect the dog. When the dog does something he doesn't like the child pops him in the nose. I stressed the importance of respect and supervision of the child as well. I have spent many hours on the phone today with this person and now she swears things will be different starting with first getting the dog neutured and her husband taking more of a possitive attitude and spending more time with him plus walking, etc. The dog has been properly socialized, loves kids and does have a very good temperment though is the product of a BYB . As for the training session, I'm told that the trainers method for ALL dogs in her class at the end of her class is to put the dogs in a "Dominant Down", everyone, no matter what. The owner said he did very well in his first day of formal training and that she was very proud of him until it came to the end. What upset the owner was when she wanted to put her dog in a down position FIRST but was told no she wanted it done from a standing position which at that point was unsuccessful in doing so, so the trainer told her to go home and every night try this, so her husband tried it and the dog growled and attempted to go for him which that can mean many things so that about covers it and they do at the times of a growl feel intimidated. I will do all I can for this person but I will not waste my time with someone who does not take responsibility and do what is required when raising a rottweiler. Time will tell and I want to see results before I'm fully convinced things have changed. I plan on sitting in on one of the trainers lessons just to observe. I want to get Czar back in class for a refresher and it was going to be with her but I am opposed to some of the things she does, so we'll see after I've observed her class. I told this owner if she is unhappy in any way with ANYTHING that goes on in class it's her responsibility to speak up. She paid for the class already and purchased a prong collar from her as well. I'll keep you posted and only hope she does what needs to be done .

Judi, thanks again for you input, I realize it's very difficult to analyze a situation w/o knowing all the facts and hey maybe I'm not being told everything either .

Judy

[Judi W]

Judy, do go and observe. You never quite know for sure if what is described is what is really happening, especially in a disfunctional family. If it is as described, she can still go to the class and sweetly say, "I'm sorry, we're just not ready for this part yet"...... The truth is, a dog is not going to go straight from abuse (which is what I would describe the husband/child treatment) to being confident enough to be put down in public.

I would suggest that it is not necessary for the husband to spend that extra time with the dog at this point, that he simply refrain from the interaction he is accustomed to dishing out. I would be concerned that old habits die hard for jerks. Also, it is likely that the child was told to bop the dog on the nose, and since it is easier to instruct a child than a husband that is an area she can control. She should be doing all the walks so she can ipractice a bit of obedience at the same time. Keep the husband neutral for a while until things settle down as he and the dog are merely fighting with each other and the husband will not like the losing and might push the dog into further misbehavior. She needs to step up to the plate on her own, becuase crying for help to the husband will simply put his pushing the dog around attitude on.

[Judy Chrusch]

I'm under the impression that the boxing ended months ago but I don't really know, and don't worry I will be dropping in for a visit;) You're right that perhaps the husband all of a sudden pushing himself on the dog right now maybe isn't the best thing right now. Up until just this week he was never home bc of work and school, now his schedule has changed and he will be home more but this is a guy who said from day one that if she got a dog it has to be a DOG not a sissy dog so alot of what's going on is an ego thing with him, JMO. You're absolutely right about not really knowing what goes on. I'm concerned about this dogs weight but then I have to remember he's not a large boned dog, I see Czar at 119 and this dog at 85, we discussed the whole food thing too and also pleaded with her to get him on worm medication. She told me a month ago he had worms and she still hasen't done anything so until I see things she said she'd do actually being done I won't count much on just her word anymore. So I think one day soon I will pay her a visit and observe her children as well and just look at the living conditions too. I refuse to beat my head up against the wall if they won't listen and do what needs to be done, you know what I mean? I'll tell ya, if I didn't already have a male of the same age I'd take him in a heartbeat. Time will tell! Thanks Judi for your help and concern, it's tough trying to help people isn't it?

Judy

[Judi W]

Well, other than a bit here, I save my energy for the people who show up at training because they care enough to put in the work. I do not spend time with people who just want to whine on the phone for hours, my time is too precious. I also become less than sympathetic with those who use the interent the same way always with an excuse for not following the recommendations - you know, "can't find the perfect trainer" "can't find a "behaviorist" that will risk being bitten for nothing" or "can't someone who will agree with me".... I sometimes think they unconsciously use the dog as an attention getting device and also, I do know that a dog is often used as a control or punishing weapon in family dynamics. When I see that I simply explain nicely that I do not do marriage counceling. I too often see complaints about the dog substituting for complaints about the spouse.

[Barbara Surplus]

Judy, it's no wonder this dog is acting up - he doesn't trust these people and I can't see anything in your posts that could possibly give him any reason to. I'd be a real cranky old you-know-what if I had to live under those conditions - no rules, no discipline, no loving moments, no bonding, no respect...

Certainly try, if you can, to see the dog in its own environment but the thing on my mind is that these people are hardly going to straighten themselves out so how can this dog come away unscathed? My first priority, if I were involved in this situation in the way that you are, would be to figure out a way to get this dog out of there and into a good home before its too late (I know you're trying...).
Barbara