sit & stay

[mijpa]

moto is now 18 weeks and is doing such a good pup, however my question is when i get him to sit how long should i try and keep him to stay? if i want him to stay at my side in a sit position let's say at the vet he does until people or other dogs come in or walk near him, he then gets up wanting to kiss and play is he to young to try and keep him in the stay position? i don't want to be to hard on him expecting him to obey when he is this young

[jokergrin]

Well, I am of the opinion that when you tell a dog to SIT, it should sit until you say otherwise. To say "stay" is redundant...SIT should be enough. It is your responsibility to decide how long is long enough. It is probably more comfortable for a dog to be "DOWN" so I put my dog in "DOWN" position for longer periods of time.
To train your dog to do this, have a choke collar and leash. When you want him to SIT, say "SIT", then pop up on the collar with the leash and press on his hind quarters. If he gets right back up or lays down, your negative wasn't negative enough...make a harder popping up on the leash after saying "SIT". When your dog DOES sit, reward with praise and food...but don't tolerate him getting out of position until you say so.
After you practice this enough, try it without the leash...then when your dog is really good, he will remain seated and you can clap your hands and do other extractions.
it takes practice and patience.
-steve

[Judi W]

Steve,
I hope you are "jokering". This is an 18 week old pup. Let's save the corrections until after he has been taught the exercise.

[WorkinDogz]

At 18 weeks of age...the dog IMHO should be positively reinforced with food the whole time he's in a sit stay (verbally praised; "Good SIT STAY" frequently during this SHORT sit/stay) and RELEASED by the trainer PRIOR to the dog WANTING to break the position.

[Lora Lee]

Originally posted by jokergrin
Well, I am of the opinion that when you tell a dog to SIT, it should sit until you say otherwise. To say "stay" is redundant...SIT should be enough. It is your responsibility to decide how long is long enough. It is probably more comfortable for a dog to be "DOWN" so I put my dog in "DOWN" position for longer periods of time.

Hummm, I say stay. Not that it's redundant, but that it enforces my command. Stay is also a command of its own, and it's very important your dog knows how to "STAY".

You should work your way up in the length of time your dog is asked to stay. It's short and brief at first, you just need him to understand what these words mean. Reaction--Reward.

To train your dog to do this, have a choke collar and leash. When you want him to SIT, say "SIT", then pop up on the collar with the leash and press on his hind quarters. If he gets right back up or lays down, your negative wasn't negative enough...make a harder popping up on the leash after saying "SIT". When your dog DOES sit, reward with praise and food...but don't tolerate him getting out of position until you say so.

There should be nothing negitive about teaching a pup how to sit. I choose to teach sit in a different manner. While having the dogs attention, holding a treat in hand I stand above the dog (very close) he sees the treat in hand and sits (to look up better). During the moment he starts to sit, I say "SIT" and reward with the treat. We work on STAY after I know for sure he knows what SIT is.

Follow WD's advice, release the dog prior to it breaking the command.

[jokergrin]

I totally agree, Lora Lee, in that standing above your puppy teaches them to pay attention to you and be less distracted. That is very good practice.
However, I respectfully disagree with you and Judy W in that, when I give a command to my puppy and he breaks free from that command (for example, in sit position, he stands up without me saying to "heel") then the dog should be corrected and then praised once he is doing the correct thing.
As for the "stay" command, I know many people who use it and that is perfectly great for them. However, I also maintain that my "sit" command should be meaningful enough to the puppy that they wont need to learn another command just to stay in the position they are in.

Respectfully,
Steve R.

[Muckdogs]

Agree with Joker somewhat ->Personally, I always avoid the double command. Sit means sit, down means down until I say otherwise. Stay is a viable command in and of itself and has its use, but I don't recc. using it in conjunction with sit or down. Just MHO. If you are into sport, which the OP gave no indication of but just in case anyone else is interested, the double command will cause you to lose points. Along that same vein, once the double comand is taught, for some reason it is a real pain in the butt to unteach.

I think this dog is too young to be worried with too much obedience right now. If it must be done, it should be motivational and not compulsive in nature. keep everything happy, fun, and SHORT.

[damp]

In this case I find “the sit” or “sit/stay” discussion subordinate. It is much more important HOW the pup is taught.

It’s not fair (and it doesn’t serve any good purpose) to correct, if the pup doesn’t know why it is corrected.

The result doesn’t justify the means, but sure… the dog’s joy and way of working will disclose the means!!!

[Judi W]

Thanks! Whether to the stay or not is an entirely different discussion and has been done to death. This is how to teach a pup with understanding, motivation and I would hope patience.1

[WorkinDogz]

Originally posted by Judi W
Thanks! Whether to the stay or not is an entirely different discussion and has been done to death. This is how to teach a pup with understanding, motivation and I would hope patience.1

I agree! Fairness in training is the issue IMHO; not necessarily whether or not the command "stay" is important.

Personally; I think the average pet owner probably SHOULD teach the stay command.... It's pretty universally accepted...

[myandromeda]

Originally posted by Muckdogs
Personally, I always avoid the double command. Sit means sit, down means down until I say otherwise.

I agree with this also. When I say sit, it means SIT. Don't you dare get up until I release you! :D Same with down. My dogs don't even know the command "stay." Sit means "Sit and Stay."

And I also believe that 18 weeks is too young for strong corrections. Of course it also depends alot on the dog. D'Argo has always been able to take corrections very well. However, Crichton would cower when given a correction. We had to wait until he got a little older and more confidence in himself before we started giving him stronger corrections.

[Caesarsmom]

Many excellent posts here. The way I train my dogs is: SIT means SIT, and DOWN means DOWN......but if I plan on leaving....then I give the command to stay, and they need to stay like I left them until I return. I have a 16 week old puppy who is beginning puppy classes, and our sits and downs are VERY brief. Anytime she breaks an exercise, she is told, "no," and put back into position --- no rough corrections at her young age. I do not use food or toys as motivation during training....only praise. I also try to praise them before they make a mistake, signalling the end of the excercise, as I do not like to correct them too much when they are so young. I realize everyone does things differently.....but this has worked well for me, as I only have companions, and do not seriously compete in ob.

If I may boast a bit here though --- I had my male ob trained, and at 3 yo, we were going for his American Temperament Test title. We arrived at the course, and I had no idea that we would be obliged to leave our dogs and walk the course, while listening to a (supposedly) short explanation of the history of the test, test requirements, expectations, etc., etc., etc. Well, the test grounds were held in the wide open.....absolutely no fencing, right on a local lake (with ducks)......and my boy was extremely prey driven. I had come with a friend, but her GSD was horribly dog aggressive, and the bystander she had asked to hold her dog for her, couldn't have my boy anywhere NEAR her's, so the only thing I could do was put my Caesar on a down-stay. I was probably a good 350 feet away from him with the other participants, so he could still see me, and for 45 minutes, he switched sides, but did not attempt to stand or sit. I was so proud of him. He had done down-stays before, but never for 45 minutes. I wanted to bust my buttons!!! BTW, we were first up for testing that day, and passed with flying colors!

[JPmoney]

Caesarsmom -
I agree with your not giving the dog treats while training, that is the way I have been "attempting" to train my little monster. But the last couple days he seems to not have the attention span that he did last week. Now all he wants to do is growl,pounce and be destructive. I have started using the leach inside when I am up doing things so I can keep him from destroying the carpet, anything he can get his teeth dug into. Do you have any suggestions on how I can get him to focus on me? It seems these past couple of days he is just trying to misbehave! I correct him with NO! when he is doing something he is not supposed to. Zeus also is a talker.. when he is outside looking for a place to go potty is just grumbles away until he finds one. It's cute. But any idea's?

[cucciolone]

Originally posted by JPmoney
Caesarsmom -
I agree with your not giving the dog treats while training, that is the way I have been "attempting" to train my little monster. But the last couple days he seems to not have the attention span that he did last week...

JPmoney,

Excuse me for butting in, I'm in no way an expert on canine psychology or training, but may I ask why you're reluctant to train your pup with treats?

Jean Donaldson, in the book 'The Culture Clash,' makes an excellent analogy for the type of training you're using- she compares it to your boss witholding your paycheck, demanding instead that you work for the sole pleasure of pleasing him. How many of us would go for that arrangement? ;)

Originally posted by JPmoney
Do you have any suggestions on how I can get him to focus on me?

Yep! I do! A piece of cheese, or of turkey dog, or his favorite toy, as incentive and reward! :)

Michela

[RottiMomCT]

When working with Ben I always reinforce good behavior...who wouldn't! But when he's in a sit/stay, I tell him, "Good Sit, Good Stay", and he looks at me like, 'Yeah, I know Mom...just doing what ya told me to!"

He's a goof ball...when he is in no mood to train, I use the REEALLLLLLYYYYYYYY yummy treats...only those he gets in class. He'll do almost anything for those (salmon treats...smell awful but he LOVES 'em!). If Zeus seems to be out fo sorts..play a game with him...make it funner than normal!! I incorporate training in to every day activities, including going out for potty time. What a great time to train the 'Wait" command or do a bit of heeling while walking.

But only in short sessions as he gets bored easily...when Ben gets it right, I usually repeat the action once or twice then release and play for a short bit, then work on another command...

I use the command 'Watch me!" when starting any training...he knows to watch my face and when I move, he's not to move unless I tell him 'Lets Go!' or 'Ben Heel!". If the dog isn't watching or paying attentin to you, gently tap on the top of his head...justa little touch, to refocus him on you...a little reminder if you will.

Good luck...!! :)