Ebony had her first CGC class yesterday, very long sorry.

[ebony]

Ebony had her first CGC class yesterday. She did incredible. My trainer said Wow you have been working with her. We had one problem, when we switched owners ebony would not respond to the command of heel. All she wanted to do is get back to me. She was very jealous to see me walking with another dog. One area that I will be working on. She showed no dog aggression. When we got out of the truck there was another Rottie pup (7Months) standing outside the training facility. Ebony got excited so I walked her closer to the pup. As soon as she started pulling I told her stop and I would not move until she calmed down. It took a few steps but she got the point. We got to the other Rottie and she was very happy she didn't in the least try to dominate or fight with the other dog. Her tail was going a mile a minute. That is why I feel (if you read my other posts) that she is not dog aggressive.

I have been using the Gentle leader on her but I informed my trainer that I wanted to try the prong again. I felt the gentle leader just gives me control over her and is not training. The trainer put the prong on and when we started in our walk around the room. She started to pull and I gave one swift pop and a Knock it off command and that was it. From then on her eyes where on me. The prong is working great for her. My trainer always prefers the prong.

We did so well in the class until the very end. Everyone was leaving and the owner of the other Rottie, my trainer and I were in a circle talking. No other dogs in the room. All of a sudden I heard like a growl bark and I looked and the women jumped back. I didn't know what happened. The trainer said she was just petting Ebony. On top of the head well about a minute went by and I was so angry. The trainer said Ebony is stressed from the training program and her hips seemed to be bothering her. She said when the women was petting Ebony she was leaning over her and petting the top of her head. Ebony took this as a sign of Dominance and told the women to back off. The trainer also informed it was a warning and could very well be followed by a bite if it happens again. I was in shock because I was so upset with her. Too much time went by for me to correct her. The trainer said next time, and there will be a next time, you are going to come down on her, and come down on her HARD. She is an adolecent and she is testing. When a stranger approaches to pet her you are to give a "good easy" command but in a voice of authority, make it a Command not an option.

I know I made a huge mistake not paying attention to her actions. I promise it will not happen again without her knowing it is NOT acceptable.

The thing, while we were in class, that upset me most is that when we were walking in a circle. We were talking about why the my Rottie is so quick to respond to commands and the trainer asked if other Rottie owners, if her dog was German, they said no. Then she asked me and I said yes. The trainer asked Schutzhund background I said yes. She then told the class that when getting a Rottie you should never get one that has a background in Schutzhund and just left it as that. I felt that comment was not necessary. She should have said that if you are not familiar with Rotties, a Schutzhund Rottie will not be for you. They have a higher prey drive and require more training because they will try you more often. I also told the other owners that don't think for one minute that because your Rottie does not have a Schutzhun background, that if you give her an inch she won't take a mile. She will try you whenever she feels she will get away with it. Anyway, I know this post is long I just wanted to get some positive feedback and suggestions.

[Vicki]

I don't know that any dog is capably of meeting all your expectations. Apparently the dog should feel at ease walking off with a stranger, obey instantly the first time she's in a class full of distractions and otherwise find a way to read to your mind. You think this isn't POSITIVE advice? Maybe not, but why are you asking for POSITIVE advice for you, to help you learn, but think your dog learns only through NEGATIVES? Coming down HARD, ton of bricks, show em who's boss, put the fear of god into em, etc., when the dog hasn't a clue isn't training; it is just abuse.

Training is not only about the end results; it is about the bonding and fun you have with your dog. Remember your dog is learning every minute, class should be a fun extension of that process not a place to stress out your dog to the point the poor thing is just over the edge.

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[ebony]

Well first our first class was supposed to be an hour but our trainer cut it at 45 minutes because she could tell the dogs have had enough. And no I would have not beat my dog for snapping at someone but I will give sharp corrections with the prong collar. I was surprised at her actions and did not correct at all which I felt was a lack of training in my department. My dog is trained by both positive reinforcement and at time treats. I have Never hit my dog and Never will but I will not let any animal get away with thinking it is OK to snap at someone for no reason. I don't know if you read the papers but our dogs are not at the bottom of the list in the bite department.

Maybe I am misunderstanding your reply. What would you have done if your Rottie snapped at someone for just petting them on the top of the head? I did ask for positive feedback, any feedback I am open to. The fact that you suspect that I abuse any of my animals I take complete offense to. Any normal human being would. By the way I do not put the Fear of God into my dog.

I come to this forum for help. There are many trainers here and some go about training a dog in certain situations differently. I take every suggestion into consideration. Some trainers take offense when you don't take their advice and I honor that because all that means to me is that that trainer is confident in what they do. If someone says, beat the you know what out, of your dog when she does that again. NO I won't even consider it. If you have a positive way that I may correct my dog if decides that she doesn't like a certain someone petting her. By all means suggest it. I am all ears. But please do not bash me.

[Step5pro]

Ebony, it sounds like the person who stood over your baby and petted her on the head should receive a little correction and training too! Head patting of any dog is a no-no! Best of luck
Peace

[Hope]

Originally posted by ebony:
Maybe I am misunderstanding your reply. What would you have done if your Rottie snapped at someone for just petting them on the top of the head? I did ask for positive feedback, any feedback I am open to. The fact that you suspect that I abuse any of my animals I take complete offense to. Any normal human being would. By the way I do not put the Fear of God into my dog.

First, I am not a trainer, but I will offer up some of my adivce and experience. I am interested, is your trainer experienced in general breed training or large breed training of such dogs as rottweilers, German Shepards, etc? The reason I ask is because I have attended both, and by far, general breed trainers tend to be far more prejudice when approaching our breed than someone who specializes with just this type of breed. It is natural, I mean think about it, what is harder to train, a lab or a rottweiler? In general, a well bred lab is not going to give you the dominance issues and behavioral issues that a well bred rottweiler will. I have noticed that trainers who train only generalized breeds instead of lets say a K-9 trainer, these trainers don't have a lot of patience with handlers and dogs that provide more than the usual problems. They don't deal with rotts everyday, so they don't specialize in their behavior. So, expect more slanted and unjustified words from your trainer if she or she does not deal with this breed more often.

Now, If this person is experienced with the breed, then there are no excuses and when the breeder comes out with things that don't sound right, QUESTION HIM/HER!!! They need to justify their answers if you don't feel what they are saying is correct or if you are confused.

Now, in terms of your dog snapping at someone, that is something you need to take control of. Don't get me wrong, people should think twice about petting a dominant dog on the top of their head, especially someone that the dog does not know. I allow people to pet my dog, but only under the chin, or their neck, but never his head. I don't think he would bite someone, but he is very dominant and I would simply not take the chance, or allow the chance to arise. So all of his petting by strangers is never on the top of the head.

I recently witnessed the exact same thing happen to someone on the forum. I had arranged a meeting with a forum member to meet an owner who was giving up her rottweiler due to now having enough space to house the dog. The member went up to this very dominant, large male, I mean about 130 pounds of muscle, and she started to tickle the part of his head right between his eyes. At first, he did nothing, then, I noticed that he stopped panting and was staring straight into her eyes and his body got rigid. Just as I was about to tell her to stop petting the dog, Brutus snapped at the forum member. I saw it coming, but I was not in time to stop it, but fortunately nobody got hurt.

This was a similar situation to your. Two dominant dogs that probably took the petting as a challenge to their dominance. Is this a bad thing? Yes because your dog could hurt someone some day, but it can be prevented. Training, preferably with an experienced rotti trainer, and training people on how to approach your dog could help. Don't kick yourself for having a dominant rottweiler, dominance is something you should expect from a well bred rottweiler, not something to dislike. What you do need to do is train your dog to understand that the snap was not acceptable and that your dog does not have the right to decide who can pet him or how long. You decide those things, but again, you were no looking after your dog so you don't know that this might not have happened if you had been with your dog, maybe the snap would not have occurred? You just don't want to push the envelope by allowing your dog to be alone with someone that she does not know. Your dog has an idividual personality, and if she is tolerant of people but may be a little dominant, then you need to train her accordingly. Like you said though, you know that was your lapse in judgement by leaving her alone to be pet by someone else.

Your trainer probably made a few crucial mistakes. First, she was petting your dog on the top of the head which can cause reactions from a dominant dog, and secondly, she was petting your dog for some time as it sounds in your post. These are things that can cause your dog to react. If it was your trainer who was snapped at, she should have probably known better, if you ask me.

Listen, you have reached your CGC, so this must mean that you have a generally behaved dog, not some sort of uncontrolled cujo running around, right? Don't come down on yourself or your dog for what happened. It sounds like you have trained your dog up to this point, and no, I don't see any abuse going on here, just a few dominance issue that need to be ironed out. I would just recommend that no matter what classes your dog passes, never forget that you have a rottweiler and not a large black lab, and this breed provides us with obstacles that many other people don't have to encounter. Just don't let your guard down CGC or not. I was given this advice not that long ago when I let my guard down, and it has helped me immensely.


Like I said, I am not a trainer, but I also don't think that you should make a mountain out of a mole hill. Hopefully some really experienced trainers can give you some great advice. Good luck with training.


[This message has been edited by Hope (edited October 20, 2000).]

[Carol Burke]

Ebony, It sounds as though you are doing fine. Yes, you missed what was going on with the petting, but we all have lapses of attention. Just be aware in the future and correct appropriately. Which in this case means a hard correction, biting is not something that can ever be tolerated.

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Carol
Darrlburg Rottweilers

[ebony]

Vicki,

I didn''t mean to jump on you. It wasn't my trainer that was petting my girl at the time is was a women that was in our class. The trainer did inform me that it was a dominant approach on her part and I should have corrected Ebony's actions immediately. I do get a little jumpy when it comes to MY dog snapping at someone. I just need to make sure that I nip this behavior quick. She is 10 months and 78 pounds. Even with the HD she is very powerful. I just want to make sure I am doing everything to bring her up the right way.

[ebony]

Sorry my last post was meant to be a response to Hopes statement.

[WorkinDogz]

I agree with Carol (again).

Any inappropriate aggression warrants a correction that goes beyond "curving" the dog to avoid a situation. That's not training; that's avoidence.

There is a time and a place to "reason" with your dog; but I don't believe that time is when the dog fired off at another dog or a person for "petting" him.

I don't allow people to pet my dogs on the top of the head usually; but they also won't take your arm off if you accidentally do it either!

Ebony; things will work out; but remember...when you have your dog on lead, there is NOTHING more important to focus your attention on. The DOG is it.

After I'm finished doing obedience or whatever; I give my dogs a Platz and then gather equiptment or whatever I need to do prior to putting them back in their crate in the van; but the dog is RIGHT next to me at all times. Never out of my sight and never off of a command.

It's safety and it's reasonable.

You'll do ok. Keep working.

[ebony]

Workindogz,

What is a platz? Maybe you misunderstood my post ebony wasn't not me when I was talking to my trainer. She was in a sit, stay right at my side. I was talking with my trainer and one other women. The other women was the owner of the other Rottweiler in class. It was only us three humans and Ebony. I was just so upset at her because here she did so well in class. The trainer was very impressed at the progress she made since the one on one session we had a month ago. Then she nips at someone.

[ebony]

Workindogz,

I do have another question. When we switched and were walking in a circle with our dogs. I got the dog that is there for his second try at CGC his name is Buster. Busters owner got my ebony. We were walking around and Ebony was trying to get to me. I was watching the women out of the corner of my eye and when she would give ebony a correction it wasn't a pop of the leash and a command like Knock it off or leave it. She was just pulling at her. Then giving the command and it was never the same command.

On the other hand when I was walking Buster he has a bad habit of chewing the lead when you walk. I gave him a pop (he wears the prong also) and a Knock it off. He stopped immediately. I put him in a sit stay with one try.

Correct me if I'm wrong but shouldn't my trainer have picked up on the improper correction this women was giving my Ebony? At the end of class my trainer said to Busters owner do you see how well behaved Buster was for Linda? What does that tell you? I think she should have picked out what this women was doing wrong. I do believe that if given the proper correction Ebony would not have been so avid on getting to me. What is your opinion?

[ebony]

Hope,

You are misunderstanding my post. The Trainer was NOT the one petting my dog when all this happened. A women that was in the class with me was the one petting Ebony. My trainer told me it was a sign of dominance when you pet a dog on the head. I believed that my TRAINER should have also corrected the women on how to approach a dog. I never approach a dog with my hand above any dogs head. That goes back to the old school. My mother always reminded me when I was young to put my hand out palm up for the dog to sniff before I pet him/her. And never hold your hand above the dogs head. Regardless my dog should have not snapped at her.

[WorkinDogz]

ebony,

I agree with you. In the class situation; the handler of Ebony should have been instructed how to correct her effectively. IMHO, Ebony isn't ready for this portion of the test yet.

It's not doing her any good to claw at the end of the lead to get to you, not have someone holding her that knows how to WORK her and get/keep her ATTENTION.

Your trainer is right about petting the top of the head being a subtle dominance. The dogs reaction was inappropriate and should have been dealt with immediately by you, but I'm sure the next time (and there will be a next time) you'll have a better understanding of the how's and why's.

Don't look at you and Ebony as the "victims" now. Realize your dog has "issues" and even WITHOUT issues; there are trainers and just people you'll run across everyday that don't LIKE the breed and find it ridiculous that you have to do certain things WITH this breed that you don't normally have to do with "alternate" breeds.

The very BEST way to make it known that even though your dog does have some problems; it's OK BECAUSE YOU ARE AN OWNER WHO KNOWS IT; AND YOU'RE DEALING WITH IT....not making excuses for it.

As a trainer, I have NO PROBLEM seeing dogs with aggression problems at all....as long as the OWNER is on top of the dog and KNOWS how and when to deal with the dog.

I have a great respect for those owners. Even though their dogs are really temperamentally unsound; you won't be reading about THEM in the newspaper.

[Hope]

Originally posted by ebony:
On the other hand when I was walking Buster he has a bad habit of chewing the lead when you walk. I gave him a pop (he wears the prong also) and a Knock it off. He stopped immediately. I put him in a sit stay with one try.

Correct me if I'm wrong but shouldn't my trainer have picked up on the improper correction this women was giving my Ebony? At the end of class my trainer said to Busters owner do you see how well behaved Buster was for Linda? What does that tell you? I think she should have picked out what this women was doing wrong. I do believe that if given the proper correction Ebony would not have been so avid on getting to me.

Well, you didn't ask me, but that normally doesn't stop me, so here is my opinion : It sounds like to me that your trainer was pointing out how well you handled buster, and that since the other owner did not do such a good job of handling ebony, she was less controllable. This is a point for you in terms of your handling abilities. But, it is also proof that you don't exchange handlers when training ebony, but I know how this happens because I also do the same. I simply got tired of asking family members for help, so I do all of my handling for obedience, and I know this is not good.

BUT, considering that your dog is snapping at people, this might not be the right time to start exchanging handlers outside of your family net.

Don't mind me saying so, but I can't help but feel that your trainers are a little off in terms of their techniques, etc. It sounds to me like they are not accustomed to this type of behavior, and I can't believe that a trainer would loom over a dominant rott and sit their petting her on the head for a long period of time.

Granted, your dog has no right to snap at people, and this is something that needs to be nipped in the bud immediately before the dog gets the impression that is is Kosher to act like this, but still, I can't help think that the trainers were out of hand.