marking indoors

[JoJo]

I rescued a 5 year old intact male who NEVER seen the inside of a house. So needless to say, he was not housebroken. It took me 1 - 1/2 weeks to house brake him with 2 minor accidents in the house. He was under complete supervision when in the home and when I couldn't keep an eye on him, he was crated. So don't tell me that you can't train an intact male not to go in the house. All it takes is TRAINING.

JoJo

[WorkinDogz]

Originally posted by rott-n-roll
Oh I totally agree but if a dog is smart enough to warn off an intruder and he is able to predict the actions as such is going to be negative than he's smart enough to know that when he popped he made a mistake. I like this discussion now were getting into pôlitically incorrect.

*my dog, no your dog, hey that's enough*

He can predict actions prior to them happening?? Really??? Generally; dogs respond TO actions...at least the trained ones do. The ones who act because they 'think' the kid riding the bike shouldn't be.....or the person walking on the sidewalk minding their own business shouldn't be there.....are the same ones who run out the open door.....just cause.

While you're doing your archive/internet searches.....check out separation anxiety too. The symptoms aren't quite what you might think they are...... :)

[Pappa Rott]

Originally posted by rott-n-roll
Oh I totally agree but if a dog is smart enough to warn off an intruder and he is able to predict the actions as such is going to be negative than he's smart enough to know that when he popped he made a mistake. I like this discussion now were getting into pôlitically incorrect.

*my dog, no your dog, hey that's enough*

Question? What are you trying to say in the above. For the life of me I can not make heads or tails of it!

[CarolineS]

A dog isn't "smart" enough to warn off intruders, it's something called territorial instinct. A dog isn't "smart" enough to read your body language, he's learned, through your repetition, what to expect when your face contorts and your voice rises. A dog would only have a sense of "doing wrong" if he had thoroughly learned and understood that something wasn't to be done. In this case, the dog has never been caught marking in the house, so has no idea that what he's doing is unacceptable.

Politically incorrect? I didn't see any disparaging remarks about the French.

[Sansano]

Originally posted by AngelBunny
rott-n-roll:

I recommend you read Jean Donaldson's The Culture Clash. It may be an eye-opener for you.

To prevent your dog from marking in your house, crate him if you're unwilling--for whatever reason--to train him not to do so. Marking in a house is bad manners--bad manners stemming from a lack of training.

I completely second that. People that want to give dogs such powers of rationalization also end up punishing them for it..and therin lies the problem.

[Syrusvkato]

thank you everyone for your advice so far... I thas raised a couple of questions for me though. I am an advocate of the crate, Syrus was crated until he was about 1.5 y.o. i experienced only positive things from crating him, unfortunately my current situation requires that he be able to let himself out of the doggie door as i am away from home for too long at a time to keep him crated. (I only like to keep him in there for 8 hours max, and sometimes i am away for 7-9 hours at a time) More importantly, isnt crating him just a short term fix, instead of a long term solution? I could see it likened to putting a band-aid over a bullet hole. So he is locked up when I am not around, the behavior still hasn't been corrected So my option would be to catch him on the act, I have caught him once or twice in other peoples houses, I came down on him with the wrath of dog/god but obviously it didnt take. I am 100% sure that he will not do it in the house when i am around, he doesnt do any deviant behaviors when i am around just when i am gone... This leads me to the debate which my original question has raised. I know that dogs do not have the cognitive ability to reason, however, when i come home and nothing is disturbed, Syrus is at the door to greet me...When he has done something (i.e. marked, opened the cabinet to pull out some trash) he is nowhere to be found, hiding in various places until my back is turned and he can run outside. now this presents me with a strange situation, (he shouldnt be able to know that he has done wrong, according to most of the highly respected opinions here) however without seeing or hearing me, his behavior when i arrive differs based upon behaviors exhibited when I am not home. Explanations/Ideas???/

JS

[Judi W]

Another part of operant conditioning is to "extinguish" a behavior. By not allowing it to happen (crating) it will not be perpetuated and eventually extinguished. Understand that the longer the behavior has been happening and the more pleasure the dog receives from it, the longer it takes to extinguish. Similar to using the crate for puppy chewing. If the pup has been allowed the pleasure of chewing couch for a while before the crating starts, it takes longer for that idea to fade away.

In your situation, I would suggest that you block off the room the doggy door opens into so that he has access to only that room and not the whole house. That will tighten down his "ownership" area, just as you would do with housebreaking a puppy. One room at a time. When you are at home, hang a bell on his collar so he can't slip into another room when you are not paying attention. I know you don't think he is doing it when you are at home, but this will make sure of that. It's back to basics with a few modifications.

[codglvr]

I don't usually get involved in heated threads but here goes.
As an example of dogs reacting to your body language. Saga was severely punished for chewing by her first owners. I can be punishing any other animal in the house for something totally unrelated to her, and she will cower away. She has imprinted in her mind that upset, angry, or disappointed humans means she is going to cower to try and fend off a perceived threat of correction. She doesn't have a clue what we are upset about, just that we are upset and she doesn't want a correction.
While at mom's house, my brother's dog went through and marked two different chairs. Balder not wanting to be out done went through the next morning when we weren't in the same room and remarked the same two chairs. Did I puinish him and expect him to know what he did, no. When he went back through the room and stopped to sniff, he was informed that sniffing that spot was out of the question, with a firm ahh ahh. Back to potty training 101. Sniffing as if getting ready to do the job, means going outside and lots of praise outside. Vigelance on my part, and not leaving the littel bugger alone in a room.
It's hard to go back to simple basics, but it works. Good luck, persistence will get you there.

[Rottie02]

Hi Syrusvkato,
I agree, you really will have to catch your dog in the act.
It will take a lot of patience and persistence on your part.
Some dogs take longer than others to see things our way,
so to speak. Also, about getting into the kitchen cabinet,
where the garbage is..... I would hope that you will install
a very strong latch (magnetic won't cut it---Rotties have
strong noses, too!) Because in addition to spoiled food,
and things that are not safe to eat , and can become lodged
inside the dog, there are also dangerous things like the tops
of cans with ragged edges from the can opener, etc. I never put
them, or anything else that could be tempting IN the garbage.
Such as chicken bones, etc. It only takes a moment to take a
small bag outside to the garbage can. Better that than discomfort for the dogs, and/or huge veterinary bills that should have been avoided. Just trying to help. Hang in there...
2 Rottie Girls Mama in MI :)

[Syrusvkato]

yeah i put anything dangerous directly outside into the trash, he loves chicken wings so outside trash was a necessity from the beginning. When I mentioned that sometimes he gets into the trash, I meant that he has some sort of a fetish for paper products...not eating them..but tearing them apart...(boredom i am sure....thing is i have not come across anything that he cannot get into yet...those baby door latches he just breaks...anything that I want him out of i actually have to lock with thpadlock because he can get into anything else...Even the refrigerator!!!! yes....he can even get into the fridge, so i have to be careful about wat i put in there too....funny thing is he will only break in if there is something with hotsauce or cayenne in it...for some reason he loves hot sauce!!!!
still no reactions about my explanation of his behaviors though????? (how he acts differently when i am around depending on how he acted when i wasnt) my second post on this thread explains more....

JS

[Judi W]

It is simply a matter of supervised vs unsupervised, no more than that. Rather than being angry or annoyed with him, limit his area of operation until he shows more maturity and is able to behave unsupervised in the same way as when you are present.