Training Methods

[WorkinDogz]

Wouldn't it be nice if there were ONE method of training that worked with EVERY dog? Sorry; ain't happening http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/smile.gif

There are a TON of very good methods to use in training. The vast majority of them stress MOTIVATION, early imprinting and adding compulsion (corrections) after the dog "knows" what you expect; yet chooses to be disobedient.

In other threads; more advanced "tools of the trade" are discussed. Let me just say for the record...in my opinion an e-collar (shock collar; electronic training collar) should NEVER be used on a PUPPY and never as the "means of initial training." IF an e-collar is desired later on; to fix a problem when traditional methods failed, then they really, REALLY need to be used by someone who KNOWS what they're doing.

Back to methods http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/smile.gif In the early days of my training, someone once told me "any method that successfully trains ONE dog is considered a "training method"." He went on to say...."It's up to you to find out how many dogs that method RUINED in getting to that ONE DOG it actually worked on." Beating the dog down; into submission and *building him back up* again the way YOU want him to be is considered a "method" of training. It's also something that will get you arrested for Cruelty to Animals.

PLEASE research your trainer AND their method prior to signing up. Have the trainer demonstrate WITH A DOG THEY TRAINED just how they did it. Audit classes. Ask for REFERENCES and WATCH HOW THE TRAINERS DOGS RESPOND TO HIM/HER. If they are happy and willing participants....GREAT! If they appear to be "shy", working out of fear or unhappy standing next to that person.....RUN! Find another trainer.

Watch how the trainer interacts with a student. Do they not only tell you "how" but also that very important "WHY" you're doing something? Are they available to you inbetween classes if you run into a problem? Does the trainer LIKE your BREED? (That IS a big one!)

Training with your dog can be SOOOOOO much fun. It breaks my heart when people have bad experiences or are taught to be "heavy handed" in early training. There is PLENTY of time to correct a dog and polish him up. But that time isn't when he's LEARNING his commands....it's when he KNOWS them and is being "selective" in his hearing and listening http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/smile.gif

Lots of our forum members are getting ready to pack up dog and lead and go to classes. BEST OF LUCK to all of you and may the ROTTEN ONES come out ON TOP! http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/biggrin.gif

[Joanne in NJ]

Checking into the places in my area... and I get the " You don't want to take your dog THERE".. with the sideways look in the eye.

Hmmmm, well, tell me why not? Give me particulars. They never did, just that sort of eye contact thing you're supposed to understand. Go "uh huh", nod your head and walk away.

Finally I actually found a real live person who took her dog "THERE". WOW, somebody to really ask! I'm so excited... answers, finally! So I ask this lady how it was, did she agree with what went on... was there anything that bothered her...

She told me that she's been training horses enough years that she would know & not tolerate something that she felt was wrong in the training of her dog.

Ok, now I consider the source... My horse has Championships in Limited, Middle, Extended Distance, Driving and went Top Ten in Endurance. SHE has to call the vet when she wants to get her horses on the trailer...

I guess you figured out, No, I didn't take my dog "THERE". Oh, By the way- On their sign right under where it says "Dog Training"- they also do automotive repair....

Sad as it sounds, and funny as it sounds, it's true.

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[Tenaj]

Wonderful topic, WorkinDogz! Thanks ever so much for clarifying what to look for in a trainer and what methods work best! I am looking into methods for Gus and trainers but he is doing so well at home. He knows heel, sit, down, shake, high-five, and is learning stay. Should I still take him to a trainer? Or should I just keep doing this myself? I trained Hildy by myself and she is wonderful but is there a big difference between the breeds as far as training goes? I know Gus is definetly more stubborn that Hildy was but he is highly food motivated. Hildy was highly praise motivated. I want to take him to advance obedience but can I wait on that and skip the first puppy classes? He is learning pretty quick and knows to sit to get petted and is really good about nipping. He is subjected to people everyday and other dogs. Any suggestions?

[WorkinDogz]

In my very own little opinion ( http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/wink.gif ) Puppy Kindergarten (usually done between 12 and 20 weeks of age) is INVALUABLE for early socialization and dog-on-dog interaction.

(Mick posted an EXCELLENT piece in Behavior several months ago about behavior development stages in puppies; print that hummer out everyone http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/smile.gif )

Here's the thing about classes. Your dog doesn't LEARN commands in class. YOU learn how to TEACH commands in class. The dog learns at HOME. You're merely applying what you teach your dog at home; to the class situation. Some dogs handle 10 other dogs being around with little or no problem. Some dogs become overwhelmed and it does more harm than good having them in a class full of dogs. Gotta look at the individual dog and decide based upon his nerve strength and temperament.

I think all dogs benefit from a class EVENTUALLY. Some need one-on-one training first....because of aggression problems or something that makes them unable to succeed in a class.

You NEED training away from the home as well. Whether you do it yourself and just go to parks, strip malls etc....that's up to you. You want the dog to be obedient NO MATTER WHERE YOU ARE. That's the whole point of training.

It doesn't matter if the dog "listens perfectly" at home if he's a blithering idiot when you NEED him to respond to commands someplace other than home http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/smile.gif

[valdes43]

Originally posted by WorkinDogz:

Back to methods http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/smile.gif In the early days of my training, someone once told me "any method that successfully trains ONE dog is considered a "training method"." He went on to say...."It's up to you to find out how many dogs that method RUINED in getting to that ONE DOG it actually worked on." Beating the dog down; into submission and *building him back up* again the way YOU want him to be is considered a "method" of training. It's also something that will get you arrested for Cruelty to Animals.

SOOO True WorkinDogz!

I just have to say that it is a shame that there are too many people that jump to the compulsion phase too quickly in need of results. People compromise the relationship with thier dogs to find the easy way out. Shoot there's a particular website that I've been to that says: yank the hell out of him now and when the dog learns he'll never have to be yanked again and the both of you can live a great life together. WRONG ANSWER! All that pretty much produces is a dog always trying to avoid compulsion thus in all actuality living in constant fear for the rest of his life. NOT GOOD! Sure somebody can have a hard dog that can resist this type of training but thats all they're pretty much doing resisting.

I've also read in a book that it is never the subjects (the dog's) fault when he has made a mistake. It is the trainer that didn't train right. If you stick with this type of mentality it will make you a whole better trainer.

For example: let's say you have taught your dog how to "sit" providing him with a calm,learning enviorment. Then you take this dog outside by a store and expect him to perform a sit because he "already knows it" right? WRONG! He hasn't learned "sit" with distractions. This is when you add one distraction make him master the sit by doing it several times and THEN introduce more distractions SLOWLY. If distractions end up being too overwhelming,(this is where you ask yourself "what am i doing wrong?) back up the training a few steps and master distractions at a successful rate with your pooch.

I for one will admit that when I first entered the canine scene I used compulsive methods way too early because of ignorance. The first material I read on dog training was very "pro compulsive" and me being a newbie put my ignorance to work. Well after reading several sensible dog training books I have learned to take a much different positive approach to training. And by the way it is much more enjoyable!

POSITIVE is the way to go!!! It might take a little bit longer but you and your four-legged friend will have a true bond. http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/wink.gif

[Tenaj]

Thank ya, maam! Gus listens well at the vet and at the bus stop when I pick up my son. There are loads of people there and he is pretty obedient there. He has his moments but I think it's mostly his age. He's almost six months old now. Hildy does well everywhere usually. Recently though she has been testing me. I don't know if it's her age. She's almost 11 months old now. But once I get on her, she responds well. I am definetly wanting to do advanced obedience with both of them. So, do you think they're fine for now? Is it okay to keep doing what I'm doing and a little later take them to classes? If so, at what age is appropriate for advanced obedience or is it how advanced the individual dog is? Like I know Hildy is much more advanced than Gus. She is older but was more advanced at his age. I had alot of one on one time with her though. Not as much with him. I am so proud of both of them though. They are so good at the bus stop with all those little children hugging and petting them. They sit like angels and wag those tails and grin from ear to ear. I assume this is a great way to test their obedience skills.? Sorry to be a pest, just want to make sure I'm doing right by them.

[WorkinDogz]

There will be NO comparing of Rotties to GSD's Tenaj! http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/biggrin.gif

Seriously; Rotties tend to be a more "difficult" train than the average GSD. Some Rotties are tougher to train than others. Some GSD's tuck their tails and run for the hills; some "give it back" to you in spades if allowed. It boils down to individual dogs.

What age to do certain things depends on you, your dogs and your training experience. I've had people call me up with "fully trained" dogs that just want to take a class or join a club for fun. WELL..that fully trained dog turned out to be less than fully trained; although FULLY TRAINED TO THE ABILITY OF THE HANDLER.

If you're thinking about training at home then joining a class; have the trainer evaluate the dog. Don't be offended if the dog isn't placed in the advanced class; he can ALWAYS be moved into the advanced class if the trainer feels the dog should be there.

Valdes;

Don't we ALL wish we could do things differently with our "first dogs" http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/frown.gif Let's just hope that people can learn from our mistakes and not repeat them over again http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/smile.gif

[frau]

Having recent experience with Rotten ones coming out on top (ha-ha-ha!), I would recommend class to all. The opportunity to socialize with other dogs AND to work with extreme distractions (for a pup) are invaluable. (Agreeing with Working Dogz).

Gypsy does wonderfully at home in comfortable and quiet surroundings but went crazy at class--not aggressive, just wanting to play so much that she dumped me on the ground twice.

She was SO interested in the other dogs that she completely ignored the pigs which were in an adjacent paddock. She had never been near a pig before.

Today we took her swimming and she tried very loudly to protect us from canoes--something else she had hever seen.

I thought I already knew a lot about dog training having trained several Danes and a mutt. I have learned quite a bit from the trainer, particularly about REFINING the dog's responses--i.e., how to get the butt in closer on "finish", etc.

Early on I could see the Gypsy did NOT react to training the way my Danes did, so I figured that forewarned is forearmed and with the help of a list from Vicky Magnus, I found a local trainer who has several dogs, including a Rotti and a GSD.

Try it, you'll like it!

Frau
http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/biggrin.gif

[Tenaj]

Okay. Okay, WorkinDogz. No more comparison between the rottie and the gsd. I've been bad. http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/biggrin.gif In all sincerity, thanks for the words of wisdom!

[MEDIC]

I think training in a class is great.I do most of my training at home.Now I am running in to the distraction problem.Max knows the exercise but keeping him focused on me is the problem.If it is any way possible train in a group it seems to work better.
Good luck everyone. http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/smile.gif
Larry

[Mick Trainer]

WorkinDogz,

Great thread, great responces, well it's just great. There is no one method that will work with all dogs, period. Too often people with limited knowledge believe that one method is all that is needed. If a trainer only works in one way than they are limited to what they can teach and how many dogs they can really train.

I to get many, many people that want to come to training for socialisation only who believe that their dog is fully trained. Usually once they see what the standard is really like they come to training for every part of it.

When evaluating a training method we must look at so many things. Any decent trainer should have no problem with you watching a class and asking questions. I envite anybody to come and watch my classes, stay by me and I will explain why I do what I do, why I do it with some dogs, I also explain equipment, and I invite them to talk to the customers. They are the ones that really know weather we are any good or not.

On the GSD and the Rottweiler (I will compare well bred dogs only) there is no doubt for me that a good GSD is the most programable dog in the world. The willing ness to learn and please the handler mixed with the ability to learn something and repeat time and again is unmatched in the dog world. A rottweiler for me is calmer and more self orientated, also more inclined to think of ulternatives. Just an opinion based on my experiences, not set in stone.

Mick.

[Caleb'sMom]

I have registered my pup for Beginner classes. The class nearby thought that since he'd be 18 weeks when the puppy class started, he'd be too old. They suggested the beginner class.

We've brought Caleb everywhere, and as we mentioned before, he must have met hundreds of people (and quite a few dogs) in his first two weeks with us.

Are we missing a very important step by skipping puppy class?

[Mick Trainer]

Not necessarily. You say that he has met hundreds of people and dogs then I would say that he has been socialised. Get himi to meet objects to and different animals. When I talk of socialisation I not only try to get the dog to meet people etc so that they do not fear them I try to instigate a mentality into the dog of "Here's somethinig new that I am a little unsure of, lets go see what it is". Meeting as many new objects and finding out that they are all good is what it is all about. Puppy classes when run well should do this, but you can do it without the class.

Mick.

[WorkinDogz]

I never get tired of agreeing with you Mick http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/biggrin.gif

[Mick Trainer]

WorkinDogz,

Trying to contact you and cannot get through on your email adress. Please contact me on KyleNanook@bigpond.com.

Mick.