When "compassion" clouds judgement

[Barrie]

Originally Posted by AngelBunny

To compare the situation between your son--a human being--with that of an animal--a dog--is absurd.

Sorry you missed the point. I obviously was NOT comparing my son's situation with a dog. IT IS ABSURD.

I was merely drawing a parallel and putting out the question on how to ensure we are not quickly giving up based on outsider's opinions because it is the easier thing to do.

Like I said, I fully agree with the notion of not allowing compassion/emotions cloud our judgement.

Angelbunny, you might want to express your thoughts without judgment next time.

[Barrie]

Originally Posted by moondog

There are many who believe they can "change" a dog's genetic temperament. They can't - it is what it is, and that's why temperament testing is so important. Some undesirable behaviors are the result of poor or no training (similar to a kid who was never taught they were supposed to bathe or brush their teeth), but others are rooted much deeper and can possibly be managed by someone capable of it (a full time job, BTW), but let's not forget that people who truly understand dogs are fewer rather than greater in the dog owning population....AND....dogs have teeth and know how to use them.

That makes generosity of spirit when dealing with dogs of questionable temperament something that needs to be carefully considered lest innocent people become victims on down the line somewhere.

You make an excellent point. And as much of a dog lover as I am, I would in no way claim to be an expert, so they would be my starting point when it comes to behavioural/psychological issues. But having said that, based on experiences with "experts"(and the fact remains that for most experts, the "subjects" are their jobs, not their lives, therefore they will sometimes provide advice that makes their lives easier) the fact remains that in order to make the difficult decision to give up (for lack of a better term) and throw in the towel, we absolutely need to remove emotion out of the equation and truly assess whether it in fact is genetic and unchangeable or just a result of poor environment.

To me, this is where it is difficult to accurately and objectively predict. And fundamentally it comes down to knowing oneself and understanding our limits without ignoring the limits of those who sorround us.

[AngelBunny]

Originally Posted by Barrie

Sorry you missed the point.....

No, I didn't miss your point

Which was with time, effort, training, expense, care, et al you were able to take your son to a point experts told you he'd never reach.

Originally Posted by Barrie

...I was merely drawing a parallel and putting out the question on how to ensure we are not quickly giving up based on outsider's opinions because it is the easier thing to do...

Reading posts of heartbroken owners who euthanized dangerous dogs shows none of them did so lightly. The time, effort, training, expense, care, et al they expended on their dogs is almost without exception, significant. Many times they've also been attacked or severely bitten more than once.

In this discussion, we have at least 3 posters who euthanized dangerous dogs.

ljs0827 had a Mal puppy who came from a litter in which 2 littermates were put down; LIESA, an 18 mo old who jumped up and bit both her and her husband in the chest for a correction. This was before the dog went after her daughter as she rode her horse by his fenced enclosure, flipping over a 300 pound fenced closure to do so; rottielover2004 tried for 3 years to address a mentally damaged dog.

I do not see anyone “quickly giving up based on outsider's opinions because it is the easier thing to do” and it is inaccurate and unjust to suggest so.

Having personally had a couple of mentally unstable fosters in our house and met several such dogs in shelters during a 10 year involvment in Rottie rescue, I tell you for a fact such dogs can't be repaired and the best thing to do is euthanize them.

[Barrie]

Originally Posted by AngelBunny

No, I didn't miss your point

I do not see anyone “quickly giving up based on outsider's opinions because it is the easier thing to do” and it is inaccurate and unjust to suggest so.

Having personally had a couple of mentally unstable fosters in our house and met several such dogs in shelters during a 10 year involvment in Rottie rescue, I tell you for a fact such dogs can't be repaired and the best thing to do is euthanize them.

Apparently we both have been victims of "posting" miscommunication. First of all, I'd like to apologize to those members who have had to go through the heartbreaking decision of having to euthanize their beloved companions if I at all gave the impression that you made the decision to make your life easier. Angelbunny thanks for pointing how else my posting could have been interpreted.

I meant it is SOMETIMES the easier thing to do as far as the experts might be concerned. I'm sure we have all encountered closed minded experts who still instill antiquated methods of training (such as physical abuse) and accuse you of not knowing better. And when they find that the subject is not responding to their methods, then the dog is the one with the problem.

Bottom line is, one's safety and mental well being will need to be put as a first priority. Your brain (not your heart - unfortunately this is the tricky part), is what should be listened to.

[Buggy]

What a great topic. I was one of those who adopted a mentally unstable, intact, 5 year old male from an elderly couple who suddenly felt they couldn't give him the proper care & exercise. I drove almost 5 hours to meet him. There was no interest in his part in meeting me, he actually sat in the lap of the elderly man in his recliner (total dominance)
They told me he loved peanut butter cookies and taco salad with hot sauce. We drove the 5 hrs home, no problems. Over the next few weeks we hiked, he ate good food, met my parents, nieces and nephews etc. I noticed when people went to pet him his eyes reflected red - I know, I know - sounds stupid but it is true. Sometimes when a dog looks into the light their eyes reflect green - well his were always red. And he would just stand stiff when someone came to pat him. It got my attention so I paid special care watching him with people. One night about 3 months later I was sitting on the floor, as I usually did, watching TV, he was over by the fireplace just hanging out, all was peaceful. Next thing I knew he was on me with his teeth chomping my arm that I put up to protect my face and neck. All I saw was teeth and I tried to crab backwards to get some distance and was finally able to scream his name and NO and he stopped. I was afraid to look at my arm but got into the kitchen - he followed me with his hair standing on end and those red eyes. With all the bravado I could find I opened the basement door and said GET DOWN THERE. Next day he appeared fine - relaxed, stubb wagging. I put him in the truck and headed to my vet (bridge time). I looked in the mirror just before we got there and his face looked back at me all happy and having a great time. I couldn't do it - couldn't put him down. I thought it was my fault and could have been for having been down on his level so thought I'd give him a chance. About two months later I took him to be evaluated (temperment testing) the man was with him for about an hour and a half and told me "This dog is going to hurt someone badly" That was the day I sent him to the bridge. It is a terrible feeling to PTS a dog that you think isn't sick. I did tons of research on this dog and where he came from and found the breeder had bread several litters to be used as warehouse guard dogs and junk yard dogs - basically bred to bite. I had terrible guilt, I kept having dreams where he was lost and looking for me and I kept calling his name over and over. But he was sick, the kind of sick I couldn't help him with and that just wrecked me - I am a fighter for my dogs. I will look and research and make calls and go see people to help my dogs but no one could help this boy. It took many years to be able to say I did what I did because I was ashamed but there are people here on this board who have been there, and people who haven't but may one day be confronted with that situation and need to know that sometimes you just can't save them - to help them they need to be released.
Thank you for posting this issue. Sorry it's so long !

[AngelBunny]

Buggy, I am so very sorry for the heartache and physical pain you went thru. It is never easy to euthanize a dog, but I think the most wrenching euthanizations involve those of physically healthy, but mentally damaged/incorrectly wired dogs. You second guess and third guess yourself in such cases.

There was nothing you--or anyone--could have done to repair that poor, damanged dog. Sadly, nothing at all.

[gendursgrrl]

Originally Posted by winniecnm

Anyone here who has been involved with rottweilers long enough understands that there is a point where no amount of love, no amount of training or safeguarding can save an animal. And that an animal that has been ruined by BYB, or abuse, poor ownership should not be strung along for the rest of its twisted life just so the owner can be spared the heartache of sending that animal to the bridge. We OWE our companions more respect than that!

It takes a lot of heart to own this breed. And even more to rescue an animal in need. But perhaps the aspect of owning this breed that requires the most heart is knowing when to release a dog to the bridge, wether due to physical or mental reasons. I hope that anyone here who is dealing with an animal with a behavioral issues reads this post objectively, and never forgets what true "compassion" means for our animals.

Winniecm, YOU should get a ribbon for wording this in such a consice and eloquent way!

True rescue work is hard work. Aside from all of the blood, sweat, tears, time, and money you put into a rescue Rottie, the most costly portion of rescue comes from the heart. Knowing when to make that super-hard decision to give the poor dog a wonderful life - in another life - usually only comes with experience. Hopefully your post will help others learn from you, as well as others who have posted, that rescue does not always end in the way we hope. Sometimes we fight genetics, sometimes we fight the dog's past, and the people who messed them up.

One of my rescue stories that still causes me to tear up now and again:

I took in a 3.5 year old intact male, Juno (was named Demon before he came home with me!) a few years ago that had been isolated outside and abused his entire life. I brought him home, he was neutered and brought back into good health. In almost every possible way, this dog made a COMPLETE turn around and was one of the funniest, sweetest, most gentle dogs that I have EVER had the pleasure to know and work with. He progressed in basic obedience and basic manners with lightning quickness. Anyone and everyone could interact with this dog and he was just such a happy-go-lucky boy with a strong desire to please. He even cuddled with cats! I wish I could have gotten my hands on this guy when he was a puppy!!

This dog took pure pleasure in his new life and nothing phased this dog, except for one thing. Other dogs. It didn't matter what size, breed, or age. Or even if they were actually present. To make a very, very long and hard story short, this dog had fear-based dog agression that always manifested in fight drive. I worked with heavily him for over a year, and with the help of other trainers and other vets, I finally had to make THE hard decision because his dog aggression was so severe (and escalating) that his world was becoming smaller and smaller every week.

His fear based dog-aggression was so bad, that near the end, he attacked and shattered a television set because a dog appeared on the screen! He was rotated with another dog (spayed older submissive female Rottie) and again, near the end, he was even trying to go through the bedroom door to get at her (even though she was in a crate in the room.) He started to chew through his own wire crate to get out to get Chloie! I began to fear for her life and started spending less and less time away from home because of his escalating aggression towards dogs.

Earlier in the year, I had heavily debated re-homing him into another home without other dogs, but the sad reality was that he was dangerous. Not to people directly, but what if he got away or escaped an enclosure? I could (unfortunatly) imagine a happy little 10 year old kid walking his new puppy on a nice sunny day, Juno escaping an enclosure and racing over and knocking the kid over, and possibly injuring him in the process, and the kid laying there watching this large Rottweiler tear his puppy to pieces right in front of him!!! Re-homing was not an option. The life he was living was not an option. He could not be saved.

Rescue work is HARD work. That dog taught me a LOT. Most of all, when to say "Enough is enough. You deserve a better life than this one." I hope that when he comes back in his next life, that it will be a much happier one than the one he had here. At least he went out under the care of someone who actually loved him. He was even happily wagging his little nub right to the very end. I know that I did the right thing, but it still hurts and I still feel very angry at his previous owners. They STOLE his life from him, IMO.

Anyway, thanks for posting such a magnificant statement about what it REALLY means to be involved in rescue.

Jeannie

[AngelBunny]

Oh, the stories are getting harder and harder to read. Such sadness, such heartbreak.

[Moosemom]

Whew I agree with angelbunny! I sometimes wonder how what we see on the outside can be so different on the inside. These stories are so heartbreaking and the people who do rescue should be greatly applauded. My 4 rescues, 1 of which was a rottie, turned out wonderful but these poor sick others must go thru their own hells that we humans cannot identify with...may they truly RIP.

[Buggy]

Angelbunny, Thank you - I know people understand this topic which is why I decided to share Max with everyone. That is exactly what I kept saying to people about him, he wasn't sick - the way we think dogs get sick.
He was my second rescue and you'd think I'd stay far far away after that ! But noooooo. Where I had him temperment tested they had 13 rotties for adoption, I didn't want to take one home but they said - take "her" pointing to the one sitting on my feet and if it doesn't work out we'll come get her. So - she was # 3 a wonderfully independent and funny girl, then I got # 4 an unloved, neglected boy who was so smart and loving everyone he met loved him, and those 2 were best buds, then got #5 - who was my one and only puppy! So that incident did not keep me from trusting and loving these dogs- there is so much good in them and when I am able again there will be one in my life again - I don't care how old I am !!
It is a great feeling to know a person can come here with hurt and sadness and be uplifted .

[Moosemom]

I want so much to rescue but frankly am a little fearful after reading some of these posts. I think I'll just stay out of this particular one and when the time comes or an opportunity presents itself, I'll try to make the best decision based on my head and heart...wish me luck!

[Buggy]

Moosemom - please don't NOT rescue because you think you might get an unstable dog - Most rescue agencies are wonderful and are run by people who know these dogs inside out and keep them and foster them for quite some time to get a handle on who and what they are - they would never knowingly adopt out a problem dog. Don't think a puppy from a wonderful breeder can't have instability issues - as said earlier genectics, environment, history etc play a huge part. My personal opinion is you'd miss out on a lot if you excluded rescue - there are way too many waiting for good homes.

[AngelBunny]

Originally Posted by Moosemom

I want so much to rescue but frankly am a little fearful after reading some of these posts. I think I'll just stay out of this particular one and when the time comes or an opportunity presents itself, I'll try to make the best decision based on my head and heart...

Life offers no guarantee for good or bad. Bad things can happen to dogs bred by the most scrupulous COE, responsible breeders, just as good things can happen to dogs bred by the most revolting millers.

You shouldn’t be put off from rescue by the discussions in this forum—there are plenty of happy, satisfying stories involving rescue. All you have to do is start reading thru the rest of rescue to find them.

My DH and I are one of those with a happy rescue tale—we failed Fostering 101 by adopting Moxie some years ago. The people who adopted those males he and I have been fostering for the past 10 years—happy campers, all. We are in touch with several of the families and have become friends with others whom we see on a regular basis.

Frankly, it’s better and safer for the average person looking to adopt a Rottie to work with a rescue group rather than directly adopting a Rottie from a shelter. Good rescue groups temp test and assess the dog’s behavior while the dog lives in foster care. They work hard to place only stable, good dogs.

[Bear's mommy]

I love reading about rescue/foster stories and would love to do it one day. My only fear is that I know I would get too emotionally attached to let it go. How do you guys do it? I know they are going to good homes, but I just don't know if I could let them go and never see them again. I would probably want to visit all of them.

Leslie

[AngelBunny]

Originally Posted by Bear's mommy

I love reading about rescue/foster stories and would love to do it one day. My only fear is that I know I would get too emotionally attached to let it go...I know they are going to good homes, but I just don't know if I could let them go and never see them again...I would probably want to visit all of them....

Sure, it was hard when the first foster went home, but he went home with a family I wanted him to have.

My rescue group's apps team knows I like to process apps interested in our fosters, so I often get to process the entire app--initial phone interview, vet check, phone conversation with 2 references, and the home visit. I usually meet the family somewhere along the line because I invite them to a meet & greet where my foster and I will be in attendance. To finalize the adoption, the family comes to our house where we spend more time together. By this time, I feel I have a good understanding of the family.

Once the family adopts the dog, it's up to them if they want to stay in touch. Some forever families send holiday cards, so I hear once/year. Other families stay in email contact and send digital pix. Still others have become personal friends and I see them at parties at our house and theirs.

Originally Posted by Bear's mommy

How do you guys do it?....

Having people willing to foster is invaluable. My group, for instance, doesn't pull dogs from shelters or take OSs only to kennel them. When we pull a dog from a shelter or take an OS, we have a foster home ready to receive that dog.

If my program don't have fosters, nice dogs stay in shelters or get surrendered to shelters and may get put down--simply for the lack of a person willing to have that dog live in his or her house for a time.

That's why we foster.