compulsion training vs positive training methods

[fostermom]

I haven't had a puppy in about 18 years and wanted to try positive training with the new pup....one thing I found was that most of the (compulsion)trainers in my area are anti-clicker and I was told people bring their puppies to them to "fix" after they try clicker training. I've tried redirecting rather than correcting, I've tried clicker training, luring, molding behaviors. The puppy loves it and was doing sits and downs the first day so I'm getting spectacular results. BUT I've noticed it's hit or miss with whether the puppy will comply...no matter how interesting I try to make it or how yummy the treats are. Even with the cues we've been working on for weeks (sit and down and touch)...he may do them, or he may just stand there and look at me!!
Is he simply too young(he's 3 1/2 months right now), am I doing something wrong, or are the trainers right...if I want a RELIABLE response, do I need to go to compulsion training? Thanks for any responses.

[Grumbler]

Let me suggest....Do some research on Marker Training and Michael Ellis. No need to teach a Rottweiler puppy Basic OB with compulsion when there are methods to teach the basics using a rewards based system.

In regards to using positive v. compulsion in training a puppy:

Yes, it may take longer to teach positions using a rewards based system (whether you shape or lure) but I would rather have a pup that has to think and perform behaviors to create the reward. Also, I want our OB to be fun right now because there is plenty of time before we will get serious. I want my pup to want to "work" when I say, "ready to Work" NOT think that I am going to be jerking his collar, yelling, physically manipulatuing him into a position, etc. Is that fun or stimulating for a Rottweiler puppy?

Will Fin be exposed to aversives as we progress and he matures? It is a safe bet, Yes.

Lastly, Fin and I are blessed because our instructor/trainer is a student of Marker Training who is involved with SchH and Mondio and has titled his dogs.

[tigerpaw709]

I began marker training about a month ago with Teah (3 1/2) and she is doing great. She, however, will blow me off so I have to use some compulsion as well. With a 3 1/2 month old pup I'm not sure if the focus will be fully there for another couple of months. How long are you training for and how many times a day? When Teah has her pups we will be keeping a female and plan on starting marker training when the litter is 3wks old. I like marker training as it gives the dog a chance to think and it also makes them think 'Hey, I'm doing this behavior and my human gives me a treat. If I keep doing it then I get more treats!' This makes them think that they are in control and keeps them wanting to do more. When the dog/puppy knows the command (can do it in the home, yard, park, hardware store, etc.) then you can start adding in compulsion if they blow you off. This is because you know that they know the behavior. There is a GREAT article on ????????.com that explains marker training. Just type in marker training in the search box at the left of the home page. Like the guy that runs the kennel/website I believe that marker training and compulsion should be used in conjunction and not as separate training methods. I'm not sure I would be adding in compulsion to training yet for your guy as I believe that he is too young. Adding compulsion may make him hate training because I don't think he is old enough to understand why he would be getting punished.

[TravisBlanchard]

I would think it's mainly because of the age, but I also believe in using some compulsion later on as well. In my thinking, it is purely positive to teach these behaviors. Which is how I taught/am teaching my guy. Once he shows an understanding of the command, i.e. he will comply with a treat present in all settings I start to use negative reinforcement. So when he doesn't comply, his treat disappears and I also use a marker for bad or incorrect behaviors which is no. Now, when I say no he will then think and give me the behavior I want. Then you have to make sure you only reward on perfect compliance, even being slow warrants a no and removal of treat. Only when he does it perfect does he get a treat, and yes it does take long to shape it. You may only get one perfect compliance in a whole session and you have to act like he just won the jackpot, even if you are thinking it's about damn time lol. When it's time to proof it I will then use some compulsion and give a slight correction for not complying. So to me it's not so black in white, purely positive or all compulsion. I think you should use purely positive methods to teach, but if your dog just blows off your command you have to provide a consequence in my opinion. Some may disagree but everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I hope this helped.

[tigerpaw709]

Ok, so I can't put the website up...look up Michael Ellis as Grumbler suggested.

[leanershnitzel]

I don't think the two methods have to be mutually exclusive.

[moondog]

At 3-1/2 months old, he has the attention span of a gnat, LOL......expecting him to be reliable even with a lure at this point is not being fair to him....there's a whole big world to discover, don't cha know!

If compulsion only trainers are "fixing" clicker trained dogs, that's because the timing was off, not because there's anything inherently faulty with clicker training. Whether you use a "yes!" or a click, the timing has to be good.

There is NO place for compulsion until a dog truly understands why, meaning they truly understand the command (and at 3-1/2 months old he has a long way to go for this)....correcting for anything else just confuses the puppy. And just to add......I don't include physically helping the puppy back into position to be compulsion, but rather guidance.

[ElleTrixieB13]

Originally Posted by moondog

There is NO place for compulsion until a dog truly understands why, meaning they truly understand the command (and at 3-1/2 months old he has a long way to go for this)....correcting for anything else just confuses the puppy.

I, 100%, totally agree with this statement. I am a big believer in clicker training, and no I don't believe you have to use compulsion for reliability. I also believe that I'd rather have my dog want to work with me than do it because he's afraid of what will happen if he doesn't. I use positive/reward based training with my dogs, but I have never encountered a situation (with them as adults) where they have refused to work because I didn't have a treat. I do believe if a dog blows you off with attitude (which in my opinion at 3 1/2 month old can't) that a negative reinforcement may be in order, but it varies by dog.

Let me tell you a story about me and my mistakes with my reactive dog:

When Justice was 3.5 years old he had a very negative encounter with a Lab where he was attacked. After that incident he started getting leash "aggression" as his flight response had turned to flight and he no longer had the faith in me to protect him. When he would start triggering on another dog I would correct with the leash ("pop" the leash) and give a loud, mean "No." So I essence I tried to correct it with compulsion methods, physically correcting the unwanted behaviour. Of course, he got worse and worse and my corrections got harder and harder and the whole situation escalated. I was living in a town with no access to dog training facilities and didn't discover RDN (unfortunately).

So let's advance 2 years to where this behaviour was very severe and I signed Justice up for his "Beginners" obedience class with clicker training. Within 2 weeks working on a "watch me" he was not worried about the other dogs in class, but working hard for me (I almost cried). I didn't discipline him for triggering in this class, but clicked and rewarded every time he chose to pay attention to me instead, creating focus and/or luring him to look at me in the face.

By the end of the 8 week class, other dogs were running recalls right by us and he was watching me. Now I walk him and if another dog comes, it's watch me and everything goes smoothly, we enjoy our walks again. Often if a dog is on the other side of the street, he'll look at it, perk his ears (like he's going to trigger) and then stop himself, look up at me with nub-a-waggin' like "Look at the Good Decision I Made" and then we have a treat party. He's even been known to nudge my pocket with the treats after another dog passes and he didn't get his treat.

Justice and I, a year from our first class where I was scared to bring him in the door, are now getting ready to enter our first Rally trial, and hope to get into our CD in the near future. Compulsion, in my experience made him escalate, rewarding what I want and he makes the right decision on what to do in a high-stress situation and makes training a pleasure for both of us.

No, he's not perfect, it's always a work in progress, but I would NEVER go back to the yank and crank method, for me it just didn't work. I do use the "leave it" command if he looks a little too focussed on another dog and if he blows me off on a sit (or something similarly simple) I will use light leash guidance to remind him it's not just a recommendation

[leanershnitzel]

..............................................

[SABELLESMOM]

No, you absolutely do not need compulsion training. Stick with Casey. She's wonderful according to all accounts. You may be getting mixed messages... then giving mixed messages, because you've been using more than one trainer at the same time. Are you possibly trying to combine the differing methods with the pup? While I actually have no objection to any trainer you choose, you are opening yourself up to confusing sometimes conflicting methods. If you are confused, so is the pup.

Hoover needs you unconfused. Perhaps, pick one trainer, and stick with it. He's also only 3 1/2 months. Patience. Judy, you are one of the softest most patient people I have ever met. Uncomplicate your situation and I think you will be more pleased with Hoovers progress. You are just wearing yourself out, trying to make both methods work at the same time.

[fostermom]

I appreciate all the responses. We have our pup enrolled in two different classes...both of which use clicker training. One works towards developing skills for the CGC; the other does a mix of foundation work and puppy socialization. At home, I will spend short periods (5-10 minutes) a couple times a day going through the cues we've worked on and adding new ones...sometimes he'll stay focused for 45-60 minutes...and multiple times a day I simply asking for a "known" behavior, like asking for a sit before eating. So far, we've worked on sit, down, come, stand, watch me, give, touch, also working on loose leash walking...stay is definitely a work in progress. I guess I'm getting 60-70% compliance. Is that good enough given his age?
I know you're not supposed to add the cue until the dog is pretty reliably offering the behavior, but my dilemma is once I do add the cue, let's say I ask for a sit, and the pup ignores it, is it better if I place the pup physically into the sit, or do I just give him a no reward marker (too bad) and try again later?
I TOTALLY agree that compulsion training on a reactive dog isn't a good approach and compounds the problems....that was a great example, thanks.

[Cdn1050]

Originally Posted by fostermom

I know you're not supposed to add the cue until the dog is pretty reliably offering the behavior, but my dilemma is once I do add the cue, let's say I ask for a sit, and the pup ignores it, is it better if I place the pup physically into the sit, or do I just give him a no reward marker (too bad) and try again later?
I TOTALLY agree that compulsion training on a reactive dog isn't a good approach and compounds the problems....that was a great example, thanks.

When I switched over to clicker training with Neyla she was still young, I never physically place her in a sit position when it was ignored. I used the treat to lure her into a sit. Once I got the sit, I praised and gave her the treat. When I got reliable sits, I weaned out the treat, and eventually no treats for sits.

[NikoJ]

Originally Posted by fostermom

stay is definitely a work in progress. I guess I'm getting 60-70% compliance. Is that good enough given his age?

I am fairly new to training as Niko is the first dog I have taken to classes and REALLY worked consistently with. We are only now (at 8 months) having really good results with stay. I am now placing him in a sit or down in my parking lot at work and can walk the length of the lot and back. (this is with cars, bikes, and pedestrians going by!) Just a month ago he would have bolted after a bicycle or pedestrian. So, I think 60-70% compliance is excellent for your young pup.

[greatdane]

not a trainer by any means ,
it seems that Micktrainer wrote about teaching too many things at once.
could that be it ? seems like your puppy has been taught a good amount
of commands in a short amount of time.
also make sure one command is bullet proof before moving on.

[bliss7373]

I agree 100% with Moondog. There is no need for compulsion in teaching a young dog. My GSD, Pieka, is 1.5 years old and I did not introduce (or need to introduce) corrections until fairly recently. I do feel strongly that at some point the dog has to be responsible for its behavior - but you're way too early for that point. I will incorporate some feedback ("oops" and a shrug) into some training activities when I feel it's appropriate.

I would also encourage you to look into Susan Garrett's work, especially her Crate Game DVD. I do not use it as "strictly" as she does but it was immensely valuable in teaching the release and I transitioned it into stay work. Pieka has a pretty darn reliable stay for the most part.

If you are having trouble with compliance during training sessions, I would consider: (1) whether you're overtraining and boring the puppy; (2) whether you're being clear in your training and expectations to begin with; (3) whether you're incorporating sufficient stress breaks in your sessions; and (4) whether you're being as motivating as you need to be. You and the puppy should both be having a BLAST during training. It should be fast and fun.