What's with the dog attacks?

[lengel]

I seem to have a sign on my forehead that says "Attack and injure, maim or kill my pets." It's written in permanent invisible ink on my forehead and I can't get anyone to help me get it off.

A few weeks ago, Fran was attacked twice at an agility seminar. The instructor did nothing.

Saturday, a lab mix attacked and killed all but two of our chickens. This is the second attack. The owner did nothing to contain the dog more effectively and another of my chickens died of stress yesterday.

Tonight, I took Zooey (four and a half month old puppy, mind you) to obedience. There were maybe 25 dogs in the class tonight. I saw an open spot on the far end of the room and headed there. We had to pass within five feet of another dog to get there no matter what route we took so I chose to pass a dog that we've trained next to before. It's a seventy lb or so mixed breed. The dog broke away from his owner and attacked Zooey. She flipped over and started shrieking which seemed to excite the dog even more. The other dog had Zo by the neck and clamped down harder pushing her on her back across the floor.

The other dog's owner froze. So I broke my cardinal rule of not touching another dog without the owner's permission, reached down, grabbed the dog by the collar and hauled it off Zo, handed it back to its owner and took Zo off to the side. Who says that working with rescued dogs doesn't teach you mad skills? Zo wasn't bleeding but she lost tufts of furr in the attack. When she calmed down, I took her across the room. The instructor then came in, said she hadn't seen what happened but explained that it could very well have been Zooey's fault. People just looked stunned. The woman next to me could not stop talking to me, going from what a nice puppy Zooey is to how I should have responded differently (like you're thinking when your puppy's under attack). To be fair the woman next to me was more traumatized than I was though.

Ten minutes later, the other owner is in tears and outside. Does the instructor say that she should go home for the night and they'll talk later about alternative training? Oh no. The other owner's dog is encouraged to participate in the crate training activities. Needless to say, no one with a dog smaller than hers cared to approach so the entire exercise was a bust. Guess the rest of us are supposed to do this at home. In short, no favors done to anyone in the class, including the other owner.

I'm telling you, I get the part where other people have animal aggressive dogs but I don't get the "Oh, that's just the way it is - it's just too bad that he/she targeted your animal" or the instructor's "I didn't see what happened, let's just proceed." What a bunch of crap. Know your animal, meet it's needs and make sure it's not a danger to others. Good grief. How basic is that?

[OnyxGold1]

WOW.....I'm glad that your kids (with the exception of the chickens that is) are okay.

I think what I find most frustrating is the "attitude" that seems to prevale in some training places that "oh its a rottweiler.....it can handle itself" and that is somehow okay for all sizes of other critters to attack it because its a large dog.

This is the reason why my one girl HATES black labs.....I swear she can pick out a black lab from the other side of a show building....and she's developed a hatred due to repeated attacks from so called "family friendly dogs".

Personally I would be looking for both a new place for obedience....where the instructor actually was supervising and monitoring her charges as well as a new place for Agility.....both for the same reason.

Plus is just somewhat seems to me that if there are 25 other dogs in your girls obedience class then there is no way for the instructor to offer individual assist with something that your dog might be slow at picking up or issues you may be having......I think I would look for a new trainer that offered smaller classes with the potential of more one on one assistance.

JMO....glad your dogs are okay!!
Heather Peters

[lengel]

Originally Posted by OnyxGold1

Personally I would be looking for both a new place for obedience....where the instructor actually was supervising and monitoring her charges as well as a new place for Agility.....both for the same reason.


Heather Peters

It makes me sick but I think this is the way we have to go. We have been training there for almost two years in various ways but this is nuts.

[kilasmamix3]

Wow, the trainer actually thought it was Zo's fault? I'm glad your girl is okay..

Dezaree

[lengel]

I want to emphasize that the instructor didn't see what happened but said that it might have been Zooey's fault. In other words, she created a situation where there wouldn't have been before. It was cut and dried and then the instructor just guessed as to what might have happened. The more I talk it out here the more I'm convinced that this is a horrible setup. I'm seriously wondering what happened in the past two years to have created this situation at this facility.

[OnyxGold1]

It still kindof seems to me that the facility allowing a class of that proportion is the one creating the problem.

There is no way that a single instructor can possible give everyone the time/attention that training properly deserves.

My guess is that they're trying to make the most $$$ possible by "training" as many dogs / class as they possibly can without having to expend the effort of actually investing in multiple trainers of varying expertise who can actually monitor, mentor and assist in individualized attention.

A personal story:

Many years ago I took my first rott to an advanced training class....we learned a TON.....several years after that I took my 2nd rott thru the same instructor and I came away at the end of the 10 weeks feeling disappointed and jaded ~~ it was like the instructor was just "going thru the motions" without any personal investment into the successes or failures of his students........several more years later I got invited to attend the "graduation" of one of my pups from this same school and I was appalled. The "graduation" was the final class, off leash heeling with distraction, long downs/sits, stand for exam etc.....you know basically the same test you would do for a CD. At this graduation I observed 3 dogs break and immediately go after the 12 month old rott pup in an extremely aggressive manner. And yet the instructor gave them all their certificates of graduation......I couldn't believe it. It bugged me for months until it finally occurred to me that it was the instructor that had changed. Frankly I think that he was simply going thru the motions and that he was tired and bored himself from year after year of the same classes. I think he simply lost interest in dealing with the same training after too many years.

Perhaps that is the issue with your training facility....perhaps the trainers are simply tired and undoubtedly overworked having that many dogs to watch/ attempt to train, and have developed a very apathetic approach to everything.

Personally even tho the instructor wasn't there to witness what occurred I still find it somewhat presumptuous and frankly inexcusable to immediately blame the puppy before getting all her facts in order. And then after she did have the facts, not immediately excusing the offender dog and rescheduling another training session with that dog & owner at a later date after both had calmed down.

Perhaps I just expect a lot from my trainers but this is how I see it. Why spend your hard earned money for training from this facility when it isn't benefitting you and is / could result in a training setback on your young girl as well as other issues. I think this training facility is frankly setting themselves up for a lawsuit when something does occur and someone brings up past incidents and they are found to have been negligent for not doing something regarding foreseeable/preventable lapses in their training regimen. I understand all about signing waivers and all at a training location, however there is a difference between an "accident" vs negligence on the part of the training academy.

Training your dog shouldn't result in your pup possibly developing fear issues because of a negative training experience. I would find a new training facility with smaller class sizes and more attentive trainers.....

JMO
Heather Peters

[lengel]

Heather,

You're right. You're completely right. I didn't even bother to quote you. We're done there.

I still feel a little sick though. The instructor used to be so amazing.

Lisa

[DarinBongo]

That's horrible! I agree, a class with less dogs would probably do a lot of good. Bongo's AKC training club has a rule of 10 dogs/class for 1 expert trainer and 1 helper, and 13 dogs/class for 2 regular trainers.

Even so in that class you have to put a red bandana on your dog if they are aggressive. And if you refuse to? You are booted.

Bongo's puppy kindergarten started without incident, but there were some looks on some faces... the "Oh, there's a rottie in this class??" looks... those quickly faded when they figured out that he was a big ol' mush. However there was a sheepdog in that class who became VERY aggressive toward any dog that came near her. The owner kept trying to blame it on the other dogs, but the trainers quickly stepped in and made them put her to the side. I remember one point when Bongo walked by the sheepdog and she growled insanely at him. The owner goes, "yeah she really doesn't like him", and the trainer told them that it is their fault as owners for not socializing their dog properly...lol

The sheepdog didn't last the whole 8 weeks, because after having two weeks of sitting out, the trainers told the owner that she would either have to muzzle her dog for the training, or sign her up for the aggressive dog class - but she could not stay in the puppy kindergarten. The owner was offended and the trainers asked them to leave. However, it was the right move because the class was incident free after that!

You should definitely find a training club that has certain rules for fights or aggressive dogs. This way you don't have to be in a situation like that. I think you're making the right move by going elsewhere.

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by lengel

I want to emphasize that the instructor didn't see what happened but said that it might have been Zooey's fault. In other words, she created a situation where there wouldn't have been before. It was cut and dried and then the instructor just guessed as to what might have happened. The more I talk it out here the more I'm convinced that this is a horrible setup. I'm seriously wondering what happened in the past two years to have created this situation at this facility.

It doesn't matter really. Even if Zooey had postured at the other dog, it was the other dog's owner who was responsible for the proper handling of her dog.

This would have been a great opportunity to teach the class about PAYING ATTENTION to their dogs and holding onto leashes properly! One must have eyes in the back of their head, especially when in a group that large.

25 students is far too many for one instructor - she should have at least one helper, preferably two for that many dogs, or she should break the class up into several different sessions. I'll step out and say greed might be the reason for such a large class size.

[MarleysMama]

I think that's rediculous..and I'm sorry your baby was targeted.

No matter what you would have done, you would have been wrong in their eyes. And certainly if your dog had fought back...it would have been a mean aggressive monster...

I'm glad that you'll be finding a new facility where you and your dog will be respected and get the training you deserve and pay for! LOL

Take Care!

[cerulean]

The facility where we are taking Mango has a limit of nine dogs for the beginning obediences class.... and for the first session last night they had three instructors (the lead instructor and two helpers).

I hope you can find a great situation, best of luck !!!

[lengel]

The trainer is now stating that is *was* a puppy correction - even though she wasn't in the room when it happened. Also, apparently the dog has boarded there before and been just fine. So, it *must* have been Zooey's fault.

The hitch: the dog's owner just recently started keeping it on a runner which the trainer said would frustrate it to the point of insanity.

She reiterated that it was my job to keep Zooey safe from dog aggressive dogs. So guys, next time you're rushed by an unrestrained dog who's clearly going for your dog, whatever happens is *your* fault.

[moondog]

Whether the instructor is right or wrong in her assessment, I think you need to stop feeling sorry for yourself....for your dog's sake.

YES...it IS your job to keep your dog safe from dog aggressive dogs. You need to grow eyes in the back of your head and you need to use them when in proximity of other dogs. And yes, it is also the OTHER dog's owners that need to do the same, but if they don't, it's still your job to keep your own dog safe, and you may have to do the job of both to accomplish that.....or at least remind them to hold their dog because you're passing in close proximity.

I can't tell you how many times I've had to do just that for my dog.....and I do, because that's what my dog NEEDS me to do for her.

Welcome to real life!

[IceWish]

I think the trainer is a correct in a sense. If it were my puppy and an irresponsible owner allowed his dog to get loose and charge my puppy i would have a stick and wack that dog so hard it wouldnt even think of coming near my puppy ever again . Theres no way i could be wrong in a stiuation like that since i have to protect my puppy..
My advice, walk with a stick, protect your puppy...

[mspooley]

[quote=OnyxGold1;816864]
I think what I find most frustrating is the "attitude" that seems to prevale in some training places that "oh its a rottweiler.....

This is a good thread fo me to read, as I am a new Rottie owner. Last Saturday was Reggae's first puppy class, and I couldn't help but notice/feel a vibe that the chihuaua/small dog owners where thinking the above...

I have to say, though, that I was so proud of my girl; she was the most well behaved dog in class, and the small little yip-yip dogs and their owners (no offense meant!) were out of control. Reggae, for the most part, just watched the chaos of this first class.

Being in this class for the first time made it clear to me that all the work and attention I've paid to "bringing her up right" since 8 wks old is worth every minute!

Now I know I have lots and lots of work ahead (she's not quite 5 mos old), but I cannot wait to "show" the others in class what an amazing dog she is and will become.

By the way, this is THE best site for Rottie info -you al ROCK!