Non-Physical Alpha Establishment

[alice's mommy]

I think Zumio05 has an excellent point. Frankly, most people start to loosen up on the rules and have a hard time reinforcing NILIF, so teaching someone with a new puppy to make the dog give you something (ex. sit, stay, down) for things like food/attention/tug/etc..) will install the idea in the OWNER, so that they get used to it as the puppy grows. I seriously doubt the owner will end up as a dictator/tyrant, but getting in the habit of making the dog work for the perks is an excellent idea. :)

[Skip]

Originally Posted by alice's mommy

I think Zumio05 has an excellent point. Frankly, most people start to loosen up on the rules and have a hard time reinforcing NILIF, so teaching someone with a new puppy to make the dog give you something (ex. sit, stay, down) for things like food/attention/tug/etc..) will install the idea in the OWNER, so that they get used to it as the puppy grows. I seriously doubt the owner will end up as a dictator/tyrant, but getting in the habit of making the dog work for the perks is an excellent idea. :)

I think one of the reasons that some people "start to loosen up on the rules" is because they try to micromanage so many things. A dog doesn't need to work for so many things IF you concentrate on the important stuff and be consistent. If you spend some time every other day or so just working on good, basic obedience it really does help with everyday living manners with the dog. Sure, there are a few house manners I insist on..such as waiting until I say OK to eat his food, not going outside when I open a door unless I say it's OK. Dogs need a LOT of exercise/activity to occupy their minds. Giving the dog an enjoyable WORK (ob training, hiking, fetching) outlet goes a long way to instill good manners, plus I really believe the old saying "a tired dog is a good dog".

[Maxxx]

I agree with Moondog and Skip. I've noticed lately that Max was losing his spirit/dogness because I've been micromanaging him. I made him work for everything and I think that actually made him more difficult and challenging. Over the past few days, I've relaxed a bit of the training and concentrated on having more fun with him and playing and I've really noticed a difference. I still make him wait for things and follow thru with all commands I give him, but I'm no longer the "fun police" and I find he's much happier and willing to do things. Not becuase I asked, but because he wants to for his mommy... and the tug toy

[Skip]

I think sometimes a lot of the panic comes AFTER we "fall asleep at the wheel" for the IMPORTANT stuff. I mean, it was the captain of the Exxon Valdez that ran it off track, not the crew. Pick your fights wisely, and be consistent. Also, I think it's important to set goals for you and your dogs, especially in obedience. LOTS and lots of exercise and obedience goals help to eliminate a lot of bad stuff.

[Zumie05]

I don't know why you guys think that what I am talking about here is micromanaging your dog. All that I have suggested to the OP is to make the dog work for a few things in life that he enjoys doing. How does that mean that I am suggesting that the dog be micromanaged?!? Maybe I just stated things wrong before, so I will try it again.

By having your dog work for things in life other than during a training session you are practicing nilif, because the dog works for something and then you grant it. Now training sessions are also a great way to reinforce leadership, but I also think it is important to follow through with obedience for things other than set training times.

With Gary, I might do a 5 - 10 min training session a day, tops. For the rest of the day, I might make him "wait" while I brush him or clip his nails, wait before he gets to eat his food, "drop it" before I can throw his ball for him again, "sit" before I pet him (he has a bad habit of trying to get in your lap), and in order to continue goin on a walk he cannot be pulling me....how is that micromanaging and creating a dog less willing to do commands for you? I think it is practicing nilif!

It's not like for every second of the day I am spitting out commands....of course this would break a dog's spirit. For the majority of the day, let pooch be a pooch.

[moondog]

Originally Posted by Zumie05

I don't know why you guys think that what I am talking about here is micromanaging your dog.

Maybe because that's what you SAID??

Originally Posted by Zumie05

make sure that your dog works for everything
She must obey a command before doing anything she likes
you must also tell her when it is okay to do the things she likes

You have to remember when writing that those with no experience will take what you say LITERALLY. Taken literally (as in what you said), this most certainly would be micromanaging. And a miserable existence!

Maxxx's astute observation is exactly why I pointed it out. You most certainly can kill your dog's spirit by not respecting and accommodating the dog for who the dog is.

Originally Posted by Maxxx

I agree with Moondog and Skip. I've noticed lately that Max was losing his spirit/dogness because I've been micromanaging him. I made him work for everything and I think that actually made him more difficult and challenging. Over the past few days, I've relaxed a bit of the training and concentrated on having more fun with him and playing and I've really noticed a difference. I still make him wait for things and follow thru with all commands I give him, but I'm no longer the "fun police" and I find he's much happier and willing to do things. Not becuase I asked, but because he wants to for his mommy... and the tug toy

You are right on, Maxxx. The idea is to develop a relationship with your dog that is JOYFUL for both, not a dictatorship where the dog is to be "defeated or bust".

Training is play and Play is training.

[mamamia1]

UPDATE: Since the "Bone Episode" I gave up on the idea that I was going to become through physical dominance of my pup. [My breeder had suggested training a la Cesar's Way] I was never 100% comfortable with this and my girl must have sensed it because she was not responding well at all. I began listening to my gut, along with some friendly advice from this forum and my new trainer. I had trained our last Rott with no problem [she was truly amazing and one of best friends ever], why shouldn't I use the same methods with this one.

I started with the treats, praise and lots of repetition. The change has been dramatic. I think today was a real benchmark day. We treated her to a marrow bone. Not one growl, gripe or guard. When we talked to her she would look up and even left it a few times to come over for a pet. When it was time to put the bone away one "off" and she gave it up with no problem at all. All this progress without one scruff shake or alpha roll. Just one more example that positive reinforcement is very effective.

Thanks everyone for your input!

[lengel]

I'm so happy to hear that positive reinforcement is working for you! It kind of sucks to be in a continuous struggle.

[mamamia1]

UPDATE: We had a set back with the bone guarding. Kali had a nice juicy new marrow bone, and hubby and I got into the discussion that she shouldn't be guarding or growling at all when you come near here with it. Which I agree with, but then he said that even our daughter [5] should be able to take it away from her. Ideally, yes she should but there is no way I'm going to let her even attempt this right now, or maybe ever. I said "NO" absolutely not. So he went over to take the bone away, to prove a point I guess. He didn't warn Kali, he didn't give her a command he just lurked on over like he was king of everything. Well as you might expect, she growled. Not a lot, just a little. So he decided he was going to correct her, and ended up grabbing her skin under her throat. "FIGHT OR FLIGHT" initiated and he gets bit! I'm freaking out, cause we've discussed this, agreed on a game plan [positive reinforcement & trading up for valued items], and now he [hubby] totally ignore all of that. We argued for about an hour about how wrong I think he handled the situation, especially after I have been working so hard on correcting any aggression with high valued items. VERY FRUSTRATING! He eventually agreed that he took the wrong approach.

Now I was so worried I would be back to square one. So the next day I started back with the marrow bone and some juicy bits of wiener to trade. Worked great.... worked on it again on the next day and she actually dropped her bone at my feet and waited for praise and treat. Hopefully we are back on track, maybe even a little further ahead.

[speedy78]

Originally Posted by moondog

Sorry, but I really disagree with this. What a miserable existence this would be. My dog likes to do lots of things that have nothing to do with any sort of misbehavior at all.

The way to establish leadership is to participate in training activities with your dog and follow through when you ask your dog to do something, not to micromanage every waking moment.

I agree with you on this one, if I micromanaged my dog all the time she would never be able to roll over and play with her toys or do anything without me. I dont want a robot I want a well trained and playful friend.

[brunie's mom]

Originally Posted by mamamia1

UPDATE: We had a set back with the bone guarding. Kali had a nice juicy new marrow bone, and hubby and I got into the discussion that she shouldn't be guarding or growling at all when you come near here with it. Which I agree with, but then he said that even our daughter [5] should be able to take it away from her. Ideally, yes she should but there is no way I'm going to let her even attempt this right now, or maybe ever. I said "NO" absolutely not. So he went over to take the bone away, to prove a point I guess. He didn't warn Kali, he didn't give her a command he just lurked on over like he was king of everything. Well as you might expect, she growled. Not a lot, just a little. So he decided he was going to correct her, and ended up grabbing her skin under her throat. "FIGHT OR FLIGHT" initiated and he gets bit! I'm freaking out, cause we've discussed this, agreed on a game plan [positive reinforcement & trading up for valued items], and now he [hubby] totally ignore all of that. We argued for about an hour about how wrong I think he handled the situation, especially after I have been working so hard on correcting any aggression with high valued items. VERY FRUSTRATING! He eventually agreed that he took the wrong approach.

Now I was so worried I would be back to square one. So the next day I started back with the marrow bone and some juicy bits of wiener to trade. Worked great.... worked on it again on the next day and she actually dropped her bone at my feet and waited for praise and treat. Hopefully we are back on track, maybe even a little further ahead.

Get a newspaper...and give hubby a whack with it.
I think he's got that macho male stuff going...it's going to take awhile for him to change his thinking. I think the hubby needs more training, then the dog.

Honestly, I would NOT be giving this puppy a raw bone right now...or only give it to her in the crate. She is not going to die without chewing on a raw bone. Trying to take something away from a dog, that is working on a highly prized item is not fair...it just makes them want to guard it all the more.

Why don't you work on things she does not care about as much...such as a toy?
I would NEVER expect a 5 year old to take a raw bone away from a dog. Not fair to the child or the dog.

Gina

[moondog]

Originally Posted by mamamia1

UPDATE: We had a set back with the bone guarding. Kali had a nice juicy new marrow bone...he went over to take the bone away, to prove a point I guess.

He didn't warn Kali, he didn't give her a command he just lurked on over like he was king of everything.... she growled. Not a lot, just a little.

So he decided he was going to correct her, and ended up grabbing her skin under her throat. "FIGHT OR FLIGHT" initiated and he gets bit!

So the next day I started back with the marrow bone and some juicy bits of wiener to trade. Worked great.... worked on it again on the next day and she actually dropped her bone at my feet and waited for praise and treat. Hopefully we are back on track, maybe even a little further ahead.

You didn't have a setback, Kali didn't have a setback......HUBBY had a setback! He needs to learn to pick his battles more wisely.

If I were you (and I realize I'm not ), I think I might try and use a little real time experience to see if I could get through to him. I think I'd march right up, without warning, and snatch his plate away while he's eating dinner - and when he objects, I'd punch him in the arm, hard. How do you think he would react to this after a day or two or seven of this? I imagine he would be more annoyed with each passing day and one day.....he'd likely push you back before you could even get close enough to take it. (If he has a hot temper, forget you read this )

It's a testament to your dog that she was able to bounce back so quickly...not all dogs would be able to. Don't let him ruin her.

[mamamia1]

MOONDOG: Believe me I really felt like doing this.... :) Hubby is the exact opposite of hot tempered, thank goodness. Since I'm the one doing the large majority of the training I don't think that he is seeing how much better Kali responds to positive reinforcement training. Our last rottie, had a completely different temperment and was much less likely to stand her ground when confronted. Come to think of it, I did most of the training with her as well. So I guess hubby is experiencing the results of all the work without seeing the complete process that we're going through. I would never let him "ruin" her... I think it's time to get hubby more involved in the training so he can see the difference first hand.

[moondog]

Originally Posted by mamamia1

MOONDOG: Believe me I really felt like doing this.... :)

LOL, I bet you have!

Originally Posted by mamamia1

Come to think of it, I did most of the training with her as well. So I guess hubby is experiencing the results of all the work without seeing the complete process that we're going through. I would never let him "ruin" her... I think it's time to get hubby more involved in the training so he can see the difference first hand.

Good idea......start practicing your "trade" games and other bits of training in his presence.....and have him give it a try your way so he can see for himself the difference in your puppy's attitude.

One of my favorite quotes applies here:

Tell me....I forget
Show me....I remember
INVOLVE me....I understand