The RRROOOOLLLL question...

[Cole Bella Tapia]

In reading many of the posts on this forum, the submission roll has been mentioned in many posts as being an outdated and ill-fated practice. Considering this, I'd like to know if there could possibly be anything negative stemming from rolling the dog in a play manner or grooming?

Most everytime we are handling our pups (Cole and Bella), when it comes to grooming, petting, playing (NEVER roughhousing), or just close contact, we end up scratching their tummys quite a bit. It has become the normal routine for us: we call them for either grooming or petting session, they approach, and quite often they are flopping on their back without asking to do so. They have shown they love the belly scratching, and haven't displayed any type of aggression or even growling, so I'm not really worried, but I always have the image in the back of my mind that this may somehow be a bad thing.

I am the one who basically taught them this, because I wanted them to get used to being handled by us, but in a non-corrective manner. I had Cole in a down position and while petting him, I used his legs as handles and would tell him to "rrroooolllllllll" repeatedly, and he would do so from side to side and eventually on his back while I played with him and pet or scratched him. It's stuck ever since, and with both Cole and Bella.

What's the general consensus on this? Is it a good thing? Harmless only while pups? Totally improper and needs to stop? Or am I putting too much stress on my brain by trying to ensure that I raise these pups perfectly, and need to stop lying awake at night going over my list of '12,000 things to do in five minutes that will guarantee overnight training success'???

Your thoughts would be appreciated. I'm going to sleep on this.

[moondog]

There's nothing at all wrong with this. The misconception that originated in the first place when FORCED rolling was advised (back in the dark ages) is that the observations of pack behavior were misinterpreted to be the pack leader forcing a subordinate to roll - when in fact the subordinate OFFERS the behavior. Big, BIG difference. The subordinate accepts their position in the pack and offers their belly to communicate that. If the subordinate was being forced into expose their belly via aggression intended to harm them, you can be darn sure they would fight for their life because the belly is vulnerable to injury.

What you are describing is a dog who is offering his belly to you, not being forced into that position. When I dremel my dog's nails, she's on her back with her head in my lap. It's just what we got used to from baby puppyhood on. If I tried to force it, she'd fight to get on her feet. So I don't FORCE her into that position, I ASK her for it....and she gives it to me.

[trish603a]

I agree with Moondog, zoey will come up to me and plop on her back to get belly rubs. she even sleeps like that often. now forcing your dog onto his/her back to make them submit that is a big NO,NO!

[moondog]

Originally Posted by trish603a

..zoey will come up to me and plop on her back to get belly rubs.

Yep, Chili's payoff is in belly rubs and cheese bits, and mine is in pretty toenails!

[rottcrazed]

What I have tried to teach all of my dogs, along with basic obedience, is a 'flat' command. This means lie on your side, and this is for nails, grooming, checking for lumps .... (I have 2 seniors), etc..... My guys now just see the dremel and lie down on their side. Justice, my boy, who is a grump and quite vocal all his life, does it without command, with a requisite 'grumph'. It is quite funny.

I have made it fun with Jewel, I point my finger and thumb at her (like when you were a kid, making like you were pointing a gun at someone) and say 'BANG'. She falls to the floor on her side.

We give lots of belly rubs here, but they are NEVER dropped and pinned for them.

Kristi

[toby01]

When my pup first learned the down command, he always did so on his back. I don't know why he did it, but the class thought it was hysterical, and so did I. He loves his belly rubbed and provides ample opportunity. It's okay to play with your dogs like that, if they like it. My dog doesn't like to be pet on the head, I don't know why, but I respect it. I'll pet his belly if that's what he really wants. We're currently working on roll-over. Not so easy to teach in a small space with a big dog, but we're getting there.

Yes, you may be over-analyzing your training. But I guess, that's what makes us all better people. If your dogs seem happy, don't let it keep you up at night.

[rencook]

I've taught both my dogs a command similar to Kristi's-I call it relax, meaning when they are in a down(sphinx-like), I gently put them on their sides and tell them to relax-and give them a belly rub or massage. Its a great command for doing nails, checking wounds, etc. Its a good command to learn and definitly not an alpha roll.
It's all about the approach-if you're are doing this harshly and they dog is not enjoying it, then your doing it wrong.
It sounds like your doing it just right and your dogs are loving it!!