some info few questions really long please help

[dr0wningless0n5]

ok so i have a 2 1/2 year old male german shepherd and hes been the only dog for that long and has had full run of the house. my dad will not crate train this dog and it poops and pees in the house alot but he always cleans it up... not the dogs fault its my fathers

anyway i just got my 6 month old female rottie and the first thing the shep does is run in and tackle her to the ground. we got him off of her but all she wants to do is play with him and hes just really defensive and tries to bite her.

i am keeping her in the finished basement with me considering i have the basement to myself. she had no training before and was being kept in a cage outside.

i built her a crate thats about 4 feet long or so by 3 feet wide. i have only had her for 3 days now. she seems to be getting used to the crate although she will whine for a little bit at first. i have her on a schedule now shes getting a pretty good diet with nutro puppy chow and ive already got her going potty outside shes had one accident inside but shes learning fast and i feel shes already doing 100 times better than the shepherd. the shepherd is afraid to go down stairs but i taught my puppy and shes doing good with it

my friend is a trainer at petsmart and shes helping me train her ive been working with her and she now knows how to sit and lay down were working on recall hopefully shell pick that up...

my questions are:

i work long hours shell be in the crate all night. ill let her out at 5 in the morning before work, my mom will let her out at 8 before work and my dad will let her out at noon or so before he goes to bed(works 2nd shift), will that be ok for her to get exercise, and go potty? i mean im home at 3 or so and shell be out til about 10

will the german shepherd ever ease up? he just doesnt want to play right now and thats all she wants to do,and i think hes just used to being the only dog so should i keep trying to socialize them and maybe itll work out, or just wait till she calms down and gets older?

[thenewpup]

Your 6 month old pup should be able to hold it for about seven hours (give or take), though every 4 or 5 hours is better. The schedule you mentioned should give her ample opportunity to "go." With exercise, I'd recommend at least two walks a day just to get things moving (bathroom-wise) and stretch those legs (so the dog will sleep soundly at night). My 4 month rottie has two 20-minute walks a day, and I usually combine these walks with mini-training sessions.

Having two dogs at once, though contrary to popular belief, is really a bad idea for many reasons. One, it'll interfere with your dog's training. Two, sooner or later, one of the dogs will hurt the other for "no reason."

Another dog being present can interfere with a dog's training by confusing the dog about the pack structure. If you want the pup to see you as the pack leader, it can be quite difficult to do if you won't defend the pup from a "bully." The GSD isn't playing, he's telling the pup her place and becoming frustrated when you interfere. In this case, it's better to keep the dogs separated at all times. Take your pup out when the GSD is put away. She'll learn to trust you and will listen to you better. You'll have to do this for life if you want to keep both dogs happy, safe, and have your dog trained. There's also the risk of the puppy bonding to the GSD and not you, thus failing to see you as the pack leader, and refusing to listen to you -- the "subordinate."

Sooner or later, the GSD or the Rottweiler will get tired of being bullied or failing to make the other submit. This "playfulness" is actually bluffing and subtle threats. When one of the dogs feel that their point isn't being made, then they'll go a step further and bite. The dogs will never "sort it out," especially with you playing favorites and failing to read their body language correctly (or putting out the incorrect body language). This is another reason to just keep the dogs separate and let the pup learn what you mean without another dog confusing her.

Congratulations on the success you have with the Rottweiler's training. However, her interacting with the GSD will either lead to disaster (a vicious dog fight sooner or later) or hinder your success in training her (you want her to do one thing, but she sees the other dog doing something else--like ignoring you). Keeping two dogs separate for life really isn't as hard as it sounds. It just requires a good schedule, commitment, and two crates (or pens).

[dr0wningless0n5]

yea its not that hard keeping the both of them seperated the shepherd as full run of the upstairs and my dad refuses to crate him and the rotty pup(riley) has full run of the basement downstairs which is just as big as upstairs and its finished :p the good thing about that is the shepherd wont go down the stairs because hes afraid of them and i keep a pen up she cant go up the stairs

riley is doing really good with her training my friend and his girlfriend came over tonight and his girlfriend is a trainer she brought her austrailian shepherd over tonight and riley kept jumping up and trying to hump her... finally we got her to stop and they played fine for about 2 hours and then both were exhausted. it was funny too because the german shepherd heard everything that was going on and if he couldve gotten down the stairs he probably would have killed them both...the aussie is really smart almost too smart and im hoping i can get riley to behave as well as that and do more than she can

i just know her training is going very well over the past couple days ive had her and thats all i can ask for

[thenewpup]

When your Rottweiler is playing with the Australian Shepherd, you can help boost your dog's confidence. This new pup is not a member of your dog's back and she knows this. So treat it as two packs meeting and not as your pup being alone with the other pup. When the dogs play and the Australian Shepherd seems to be dominating, step in and let your pup know that you're on her side. Keep the other dog from bullying your dog. This will boost confidence and help you gain your dog's trust.

During walks, if you see a strange dog (a stray perhaps) approach, step in front of your dog. This shows her that you are the alpha and will protect your pack. Little things like that can do a lot.

Look up NILIF (Nothing In Life Is Free) and incorporate that into your training...it will boost your results with her training. Make her sit for food, sit before you open the door or force her to wait until you go out the door first. If she is in the way, never walk around or over her. Always make her move. Never place her up on the couch or bed, since high places denote rank. All of these subtle things will show her that you are the boss. Being consistent and fair will show her that you are a kind leader.

When you put together the NILIF, standing up for the pup when other dogs are present, and her basic obedience, you should have a dog that is more manageable and easier to train. Dogs that know their place in the pack are more willing to listen to you and very eager to please.

Good luck to you and your pup.

[frontierrots]

thenewpup, don't know you but much of you're advice is highly antiquated.

NILIF is a good idea for new owners but your desciption of pack and keeping dogs isolated from other dogs is very out of date

Humans are not part of a pack. We are not dogs. Dogs know this. We are leaders sure, we are family, sure but a pack we are not. Sure don't let other dogs beat your dog up. BUT it is highly important for all puppies to learn to be fluent in dog language skills. If they are not, then they end up like the German Shepherd in the original post. No social skills at all.

original poster, please make an effort to continue your pup's social skills lessons with well behaved, polite and playful dogs that you know. DO NOT go to a dog park and do not let other dogs beat up your pup. But do encourage her social and language skills with her own species.

As far as your Dad's dog goes, he may eventually get used to the pup. But don't allow him to jump on or grab your girl as it will teach her to be defensive of him and possibly other Shepherds also. With dogs like this you are better off just allowing him to get used to seeing her as a part of daily life and a tolerence may occur, it also may not. He obviously has no dog language or social skills so he is crippled in that regard.

Dogs not only need to bond to their owners to become trained but they also need to be able to speak dog. The lack of these two skills are what causes many dogs to be put down each year

Try to get into an actual training class, not a petstore one but a reputable beginner class with a trainer of good reputation for using fair and mostly positive methods.

Get your girl as much exercise as you can in addition to her training and she will be very happy with you

Best wishes

[seldown]

What kind of crate did you build for her?

Is it enclosed at the top also? I was just curious because you mentioned you built it yourself. If it is wooden does she chew it at all? I would assume the top is covered, but if it is not I wondered if the shepherd managed to get into the basement and jumped into the crate it might not a good situation for the puppy.

I would also recommend a training class at an obedience facility not at a pet store.

[seldown]

Oops. Sorry I walked away from the computer and remembered the shepherd doesn't go down the steps!

[dr0wningless0n5]

hahaha yea the shepherd wont go down the steps and yes the top is covered she doesnt chew on it at all

[thenewpup]

Originally Posted by frontierrots

thenewpup, don't know you but much of you're advice is highly antiquated.

NILIF is a good idea for new owners but your desciption of pack and keeping dogs isolated from other dogs is very out of date

Humans are not part of a pack. We are not dogs. Dogs know this. We are leaders sure, we are family, sure but a pack we are not. Sure don't let other dogs beat your dog up. BUT it is highly important for all puppies to learn to be fluent in dog language skills. If they are not, then they end up like the German Shepherd in the original post. No social skills at all.

dr0wningless0n5, you will find that there are numerous ways in which to train a dog. For the most part, they fall into three categories: positive, negative, and a combination of both. At the moment positive-only reinforcement is most popular, though some are leaning towards a more balanced positive-negative reinforcement method. Negative reinforcement does offer results, but is usually temporary and causes numerous behavioral problems.

True, dogs can distinguish between a dog and a human. However, they instinctively understand pack structure and need it. Dogs, like humans, horses, or even birds, will accept another species into their close-knit group. Most of a dog's "language" as far as body language and verbal communication is instinctive, though they can learn new things (like smiling from a human). The GSD is anti-social because he doesn't have any meaningful contact with anyone, dog or human.

To a dog, a pack IS family. Whether or not you intend for this to happen, the dog will consider you to be part of its pack. Failure to understand this will make for difficulty training the dog. Even a human has a "pack." When you are born your mother and father are the leaders and your siblings are lower ranking than your parents. Later on you realize that your mother is more dominating than your father and you feel that you have more leeway than your sister. So in your mind the ranking structure is: Mother, Father, you, and your sister. It's not absolute and sometimes your father wins an argument. Sometimes your sister wins your mother's praise in spite of your efforts. For the most part, the ranking structure is fairly predictable.

A dog does not have to be friends with everyone and it isn't recommended. They can be friendly or somewhat aloof, and that's fine. Just as we train our own children to be friendly to strangers when we are present, but not to listen to everything a stranger says. The GSD is deprived of social contact and has very little training to boot. Your dog will look to you as the pack leader, whether or not you are a dog. You bring the food, train the dog, and offer protection and guidance when the dog is unsure.

All training in regards to dogs involve taking advantage of a dog's natural inclination. For example, when a dog watches a treat go up and past his head, he will sit so that his eyes can continue to follow. When the dog does sit, we mark that action and praise him. Eventually the dog learns that sitting on his rear when you utter a certain sound means food and praise.

Dogs have a natural inclination to look to a leader. In order to make training a dog easier, we assume the role as Alpha. This is why there is such an emphasis on being the "pack leader," "Alpha," or "leader" when training your dog. Dogs pay little attention to a member it considers to be subordinate. Being unable to obtain this Alpha status in the eyes of your dog is one of the main contributing factors to dog disobedience and behavioral problems. A dog will never understand being "equal." You're either higher ranking or lower ranking.

Two or more dogs can live together peacefully, true. However, it is to be avoided by novice dog owners since an understanding of pack structure and dog "language" is needed. Also a deep commitment to being consistent, fair, and observant is required. In your case, I would recommend separating the dogs until you become more knowledgeable about dogs.

Please use other resources about training dogs to give you a more rounded understanding. Positive reinforcement works on some dogs. Negative reinforcement works on some dogs. A balance of both works on some dogs. If you look, you'll find testimony that proves that they all work. However, you may find that your dog responds better to one than another. It's up to you to decide which you should use.

[dr0wningless0n5]

thank you for the advice it has helped out so much when they were playing i was stepping in and defending her and it did seem to help at one point the aussie got a little to defensive and riley actually came and hid behind me so my friend kelly said i could tell the aussie no so itd look like i was defending riley

i will take all of this into consideration and im still going to try to introduce the german shepherd to riley slowly if they never get along its no big deal

its funny though we have 3 cats and 2 of which we had when the gs was a pup and he hates them both when we got the 3rd cat he didnt like her too much but my brother would yell at him everytime he tried something with the kitten now he loves her and loves to play with her...

im hoping this will work out with riley

[Baxter's Mom]

Being unable to obtain this Alpha status in the eyes of your dog is one of the main contributing factors to dog disobedience and behavioral problems

And it has nothing to do with lack of training or understanding a dog?

Having two dogs at once, though contrary to popular belief, is really a bad idea for many reasons. One, it'll interfere with your dog's training. Two, sooner or later, one of the dogs will hurt the other for "no reason."

OMG, are you serious??? Somebody quick, call the cops, animal control, something... I have four dogs and they are going to hurt each other for no reason... :) And no, having 2 dogs doesn't interfere with your training of two dogs, it's called time management...

At the moment positive-only reinforcement is most popular, though some are leaning towards a more balanced positive-negative reinforcement method. Negative reinforcement does offer results, but is usually temporary and causes numerous behavioral problems.

Why would you use negative reinforcement when it is temporary and causes "numerious behavioral problems"?

You can't force being "alpha" onto a dog, it comes with natural leadership and training. I would worry more about training the pup first, than if I was alpha.

Good luck in training and maybe you and your dad can go to training classes together with each of your dog's, sounds like his GSD could use some training... ( as well as dad)

[lovemypuppies]

A few tips...Dogs are a lot more likely to squabble if they are at home when they meet. There are simply too many things around that may set one off. Doorways, special toys, bones and even favorite people. You may want to try this: If your father or even better a real "dog person" walks his GSD on a leash and you do the same you can gradually bring the dogs side by side while walking in the SAME direction. NO HEAD ON COLLISIONS! Just keep walking and don't allow contact or dirty looks. If you do this "coming together" and matter of factly strolling together a few times you should see the dogs relax and become used to one another. I say this more to give you a general sense of what needs to be done rather than actual training, because I am not a trainer. I do think that when dogs are living so close together an effort should be made to get them at ease with one another or a serious fight could develop. There is a lot to the subject of multiple dogs and I know there are books that address the problem. You know, if you choose to take on this project you may also enhance both dogs lives. I hope you succeed. If the pros here want to correct me I will not be offended