10 week old female, have some questions

[Heironymous Josch]

Hello all, I'm a new member to the forum, although I've been doing some lurking for quite some time! I bought my girlfriend a puppy for valentine's day; she owned a rotti before but neither of us have raised one from a puppy. Lola is 10 weeks old now which means we got her at 6 weeks which is rather young to have been weened I now know. Since we've had her I have done TONS of research here, at other sites, at the library and by calling our vet. I'm having some problems and I want to gather others' opinions to see if they are cause for alarm and if any suggestions are available for correction.

Aggressive biting -

I know what most of you are thinking - All puppies bite and rarely is a puppy this young "aggressive." Believe you me, I've been around lots of puppies and have read enough to know that. Of course, like any other puppy, she likes to bite and sometimes growl while playing which we promptly follow up with a soft tug on the collar, "no", and a redirect to proper chew toys. This works well but a few times now she has actually snapped with a much different growl and an immediate lunge and bite. She's done this to my girlfriend several times now and hasn't yet to me. I've noticed that it usually happens when she's being held. I've perceived this as her way of telling us she doesn't like to be held anymore - understandable. What worries me is her justifying a bite if something isn't going the way she wants. Lots of things are going to happen in her lifespan that she may not want but a bite is inexcusable. This is absolutely, without question not a playful bite. Is this common with 10 week old rotties? How can I correct? Can I correct?

Stubbornness -

Early in training I decided that I didn't want the bulk of her training to be treat based, I wanted most of her reward to be verbal praise. This worked well with us teaching her "sit, down, stay, drop, and shake" at about 7 weeks. As she got older she decided to start picking and choosing when to take our commands. After more reading, I decided that training with treats if very common and not a bad idea so I tried introducing them to correct her intermittent behavior. Now, unless she can see I have a treat in my hand she just either stares me in the eyes as I repeat the command over and over or ignores me completely by biting the ground or finding anything to redirect her attention. I know that rott's are smart dogs and they need to believe that what we ask them to do is going to benefit them but she needs to listen to me and I'm not always going to have treats. Since day one we've given her emphatic verbal praise for doing the right thing, soft correction when she's wrong and sometimes treats when she does something extraordinarily well but she only does what she's supposed to when she wants to. She knows the commands and chooses not to respond to them. Is this common? How can I correct? Can I correct?

[Heironymous Josch]

So, yesterday I made a breakthrough. As I'm sure with most puppy development problems, it wasn't Lola's fault but mine. As we went through her walk routine last night, which includes her stopping and sitting at two doors to let me exit first, I had the same problem - no response to my commands. As I was repeating "sit" over and over, it occured to me that as I became more frustrated, my "sit" command evolved into the same tone I use when saying "NO!" If she associates this tone with something she's not supposed to do and I'm asking her to sit with it, essentially I'm telling her, "Don't sit!" So, I took a pause, knelt down, gave her some kisses and verbal praise, telling her what a good girl she is, stood up, repeated the "sit" command in a mellow, slightly-cheering tone and bingo - She sat! There have been other instances of her "stubbornness" and by correcting my actions I have resolved all of them! I'm thinking hard about the biting to see what I can do to solve that. Thanks for reading everyone.

Josch

[hokisteph5]

Well, everything you've described sounds like normal puppy behavior to me and correctable. I know as Rottweiler owners we tend to think down the line, which is usually good, but in this case Lola's 10 weeks old and you've only had her 4 weeks. I think sometimes we set our expectations a little high and forget that our dogs do have limitations, are still learning, etc.

In terms of the biting, it will probably take many, many redirects before she truly understands that biting of humans is not allowed. The key is to remain calm and patient. One thing I've found that works well when redirecting is a chilly bone. The cold on their gums and teeth seems to keep the puppy occupied a lot longer than when you just redirect to a regular toy.

When dealing with the stubbornness (and IMO females seem to be more stubborn than the males), it was recommended to me by a trainer to treat three times when training and then reward only with verbal praise the fourth time. That way the dog doesn't get into the habit of only doing something when a treat's involved. Also, try to just say the command one time. I've found that if Gretchen's in a particularly stubborn mood, by saying it once and then waiting she'll eventually do what I want. I may get "the look" from her, but she'll comply.

Last, if you haven't done so already you really should try to look at getting Lola enrolled in a Puppy Kindergarten class. It's a great way to work on socializing her with other dogs, it builds the bond between you and her, and the trainer can help spot trouble areas and/or work on any you bring to their attention.

For example, since Gretchen came into a household that already had Samson it was assumed she would love going to Puppy K. Wrong. She wanted nothing to do with the other dogs, their owners, etc. Big surprise and something correctable early on before it became an issue.

Also, I realized last summer (after multiple classes) that Samson seems to have developed an issue with unneutered males. By going to class I was able to work on this issue and teach him the "watch me" command (I first heard about it on this site).

[Katie K]

Hi there,
I have a 9 month old rottie. Love him dearly. I also have two small children. The day I brought my rottie home, I made a commitment that I have a zero tolerance on growling and biting. By zero tolerance, I mean EVERY single time he growled or bit me, I corrected him. (I'm not talking about teething biting either, that's different). I got my pup about 7 weeks. He was actually quite nasty sometimes. One time he got down right nasty, baring his teeth, growling and biting. I called my husband at work crying, I thought he was going to be a viscious pet. Turns out, I just had some work to do.

Here's what I did and so far, so good. You and your girlfriend must establish yourselves as alpha dogs. Your puppy must submit to you whenever you ask. If my puppy got nasty, I would very gently close his mouth with my hand and roll him onto his back and gently hold him down. You do not need to be mean or forceful.I've read that this is what bitch's do with their own pups when they get out of line. Everytime cannot be stressed enough. Also don't yell, just say "No bite, or no growl."

Food time was very difficult. I sat by his food dish at every meal for over a week until I established the behavior I wanted. I started by sitting by his dish and correcting him if he got nasty. Then I would touch him while he ate, important for me with the little kids. Correct him if he got nasty. Eventually, I worked up to feeding him piece by piece, and then I could actually open his mouth and take food out without him getting upset. With treats, I'd give it to him if he was quiet. If he growled when I got near his treat, I'd pull it out of his mouth and throw it away. If he was quiet when I took the treat out of his mouth, he'd get praise and a reward of getting the food back.

Advice from my vet was that I touch his feet everyday so that nail trimming will get easy. She says rotties have issues with their feet. She also told me to put him in the submit position I previously stated several times throughout the day. If he wriggled to get free, hold him until he stops. I'd say your girlfriend needs to do this to establish that she is also a pack leader like yourself.

Everyone here will tell you obedience school is a must. Trainers will show you how to make your dog listen to you guys on commands.

Good luck.

[Lola B Marie]

Our Lola was removed from her litter when she was much to young. She arrived in the US from Hungry when she was under 8 weeks old. Between shipping and quarantine, I can only imagine. She was a biter. If she didn't like something, she would turn around growl and bite. LOla was bred for her beauty and not her temperment. I'll admit, it was kind of cute to see this otherwise charming puppy, pull up her tiny lips and show her teeth and then go for a bite. OK, so her trainer didn't agree that this was on the cute side at all. I had to become a very firm pack leader and had to teach her where she belonged in the pack order. He said this was fear aggression because she never learned from her mother what proper pack behavior was. In the wild, the mother or pack leader will snap her jaws at the puppy to make the young dog behave. If the pack was about to make a kill, and a pup started barking, the snapping of jaws would quiet the pup. If the pup walked away and was making noise, endangering the safety of the pack,again the leader would snap jaws. Our trainer was hired because he had trained dogs for the police academy of New York. He said , you have an out of control, aggressive dog. He gave us a 6in piece of chain which I was to either throw against the wall or near the dogs feet. This was to mimic the snapping jaws. This was to be accompanied by a firm loud growl,Grrrrrrrrr.When ever Lola went for us, the piece of chain was dropped and someone growled. She was very afraid of this.After about three chain tosses, she only needed the growl which was much more convenient. To this day,and Lola is 2yrs old,all I need to do is growl and she either releases the occasional paper clip or other treasure she has in her mouth.

[zorro13]

She knows the commands and chooses not to respond to them. Is this common? How can I correct? Can I correct?

***Sorry, but at 10 weeks, she does not know her commands as well as you think she does. This is normal rottie puppy behavior. If you did a search on all puppy topics here, you will see this time and time again. Puppies love to play, this is part of their intelligence makeup as well. Use consistency with your re-direction over and over and over again. This takes time, how much time depends on each individual dog. I do admit, I truly love the rottie puppie attitude. It is very common for me to walk around the house with a pup attached to my leg, I have even had my pants ripped up and sleeves ripped off of shirts. LOL

Anyhow, relax a bit here, don't put too many pressures on such a young pup too fast. Get her and yourself into beginning obedience classes, take a lot of walks, and give her even more play time. And, by all means, train the pup with treats, don't make life on yourself so tough. Welcome to the forums!!!

[damp]

Originally Posted by Heironymous Josch

sometimes treats when she does something extraordinarily well but she only does what she's supposed to when she wants to. She knows the commands and chooses not to respond to them. Is this common? How can I correct? Can I correct?

I find it very extraordinarily every time when a 10 weeks old pup sits/downs/drops on "command" or whatever .... and I would reward it with the best treat.

I don't think there is any way or reason to correct your up, but there are 1000 good reasons to teach it.

I suggest you take some puppy classes so you learn how to teach and handle your pup properly.

[zorro13]

Katie K: Holy cow, I seemed to have missed your post on the first reading. Ugh, after reading your training regime, I am aghast, wow, that sounds like boot camp to me. Why are you so harsh? And, why are you putting a pup on it's belly and holding it down? I'm sorry that I am coming off harsh myself, but where did you get these tips? I really hope you stay here and read thru the forums and learn some positive training techniques, not to mention respect. Because when your pup reaches ages 2-3, he will have enough of you already and then your problems are really going to begin. It's about positive training, and real leadership with fair and consistent training. Good lord, a pup is not nasty as you described and the fact you called up your husband crying over such is pitiful. Why on earth did you get a rottie in the first place? Anyhow, I would use your post as something NOT to do.

*I apologize for my callousness, but sometimes stuff like this really does drive me nuts. *

[Katie K]

Originally Posted by zorro13

Katie K: Holy cow, I seemed to have missed your post on the first reading. Ugh, after reading your training regime, I am aghast, wow, that sounds like boot camp to me. Why are you so harsh? And, why are you putting a pup on it's belly and holding it down? I'm sorry that I am coming off harsh myself, but where did you get these tips? I really hope you stay here and read thru the forums and learn some positive training techniques, not to mention respect. Because when your pup reaches ages 2-3, he will have enough of you already and then your problems are really going to begin. It's about positive training, and real leadership with fair and consistent training. Good lord, a pup is not nasty as you described and the fact you called up your husband crying over such is pitiful. Why on earth did you get a rottie in the first place? Anyhow, I would use your post as something NOT to do.

*I apologize for my callousness, but sometimes stuff like this really does drive me nuts. *

Yes it was quite callouse and quite rude. Thanks for making a newbie feel soooo welcome!
If you had read my entire post, you would have realized why I did this. I was recommended to do it by my vet. She trained in downtown Detroit and has dealt with multiple aggressive rotts. Did you misunderstand my message anyway? Harsh? Hardly. This is not how I train my dog to heal, sit, stay. This is how I established myself in the pack, briefly, maybe for the first week when he came home. I take my dog to obedience classes. The instructor is a breeder/trainer for police dogs. Her advice is highly sought after. She and I both use positive training techniques and respect.
I see nothing wrong with teaching a pup how to eat and be feed politely. This was not harsh!
Also, who are you to call me pitiful? Just trying to make the person who posted the question feel like he wasn't alone. But I'll remember this for the future and won't comment on emotions again.
P.S. I got a rottie probably for the same reasons you did.

[zorro13]

Katie K: Yes, I did get the message of your post. As instructed by your vet to do this: She also told me to put him in the submit position I previously stated several times throughout the day. If he wriggled to get free, hold him until he stops. ** Fabulous, this is bullying, short and simple. I really wish vets would stick to what they do best, that is medicine.

The problems I am having with your advice is you are a first time rottie owner and advising another new rottie owner with this stuff, with 'correction' laced fairly often in that post, not to mention taking food out of a pup's mouth, wow. I am almost afraid to ask what corrections you are using? Nonetheless, you have a great learning opportunity before you in these forums.

[Katie K]

Originally Posted by zorro13

Katie K: Yes, I did get the message of your post. As instructed by your vet to do this: She also told me to put him in the submit position I previously stated several times throughout the day. If he wriggled to get free, hold him until he stops. ** Fabulous, this is bullying, short and simple. I really wish vets would stick to what they do best, that is medicine.

The problems I am having with your advice is you are a first time rottie owner and advising another new rottie owner with this stuff, with 'correction' laced fairly often in that post, not to mention taking food out of a pup's mouth, wow. I am almost afraid to ask what corrections you are using? Nonetheless, you have a great learning opportunity before you in these forums.

Right, I'm sure that my vet knows nothing about dog behavior/rearing. After getting her DVM and working one on one with hundreds of rotts, she clearly can't be a resource!
As for your issue about my posting, if you read general rules and guidelines concerning this site, it is clearly encouraged for all members to participate in posts. As you know, directly under everyone's name is the membership level. Clearly this is no big secret to anyone reading my advice. I have also noticed that their are members with their first rotts and they are 12-13 months old. Obviously not more experienced than myself. They have just had more time to post.
As for removing food from the dogs mouth. Guess you don't have kids, or don't ever want any in your house.

[spidey]

Vets are not behaviourists or trainers, they're medical doctors for animals. Getting a DVM does not entail learning much about behaviour at all, it's MEDICINE, not behaviour study! Your vet is wrong, period. Vets are a resource for medical advice, not behaviour advice, not training advice, not nutritional advice, MEDICAL ADVICE. Please don't assume that because someone has a DVM that they are an expert about all aspects of animals, because it's simply not true, and the whole dominance theory of dog training is years out of date.

[rottnkidd]

I am with spidey 100%. This DVM is advising the ALPHA roll which is an outdated, dangerous, and ineffective method. A strong leader exudes a calm confident attitude and does not need to be hollering, rolling, or playing take-away with the dogs food.
Here are a couple of articles on alpha rolls-
4 Paws University Sacramento Dog Obedience Training
Alpha roll - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
kathy

[LolaLaRue]

a 10 week old puppy does not need bullying or alpha rolls to learn to submit, all training must be positive right now. Up until 16 weeks is a very critical imprint time for puppies and any negative experience will be kept with them for life. Holding them down whether on their backs or their nose creates a an opposition reflex which means they will fight back even harder. A verbal correction, a stern NO or AHH AHH and then take the stimulas away, such as turn your back, get up, ignore your pup, if she nips at you let out a high pitched OUCH and then end the play/interaction. A play group with similar aged pups is also a great way for them to get socialization and learn bite inhibition. a 10 week ols that sits, downs etc. at home treat in hand and no distractions learns that if they sit they get a treat, but they dont "understand" the command ,a dog truely understands when they respond to one cue, said one time, no matter what the distractions are, with no treat present. Keep up the obedience enter her in a puppy kindergarten, but dont put too many demands on her too quickly.

Vets are not behaviourists, they know very little about behaviour at all. Find a good trainer to work with. My vet refers clients to my trainer, who is a behaviorist and agression specialist, on a weekly basis. They also know very little about nutrition. just like you dont go to your internist if you are bi polar, thats what psychiatrists are for. Its the same idea in the dog word, for behavior problems see a behaviourist.

Good luck with your girl, they usually grow out of the biting when their adult teeth come in, just make sure she has many different appropriate toys to chew on, different sizes and textures to keep things interesting.

[rottnkidd]

Originally Posted by Heironymous Josch

Hello all, I'm a new member to the forum, although I've been doing some lurking for quite some time! I bought my girlfriend a puppy for valentine's day; she owned a rotti before but neither of us have raised one from a puppy. Lola is 10 weeks old now which means we got her at 6 weeks which is rather young to have been weened I now know. Since we've had her I have done TONS of research here, at other sites, at the library and by calling our vet. I'm having some problems and I want to gather others' opinions to see if they are cause for alarm and if any suggestions are available for correction.

Aggressive biting -

I know what most of you are thinking - All puppies bite and rarely is a puppy this young "aggressive." Believe you me, I've been around lots of puppies and have read enough to know that. Of course, like any other puppy, she likes to bite and sometimes growl while playing which we promptly follow up with a soft tug on the collar, "no", and a redirect to proper chew toys. This works well but a few times now she has actually snapped with a much different growl and an immediate lunge and bite. She's done this to my girlfriend several times now and hasn't yet to me. I've noticed that it usually happens when she's being held. I've perceived this as her way of telling us she doesn't like to be held anymore - understandable. What worries me is her justifying a bite if something isn't going the way she wants. Lots of things are going to happen in her lifespan that she may not want but a bite is inexcusable. This is absolutely, without question not a playful bite. Is this common with 10 week old rotties? How can I correct? Can I correct?

Stubbornness -

Early in training I decided that I didn't want the bulk of her training to be treat based, I wanted most of her reward to be verbal praise. This worked well with us teaching her "sit, down, stay, drop, and shake" at about 7 weeks. As she got older she decided to start picking and choosing when to take our commands. After more reading, I decided that training with treats if very common and not a bad idea so I tried introducing them to correct her intermittent behavior. Now, unless she can see I have a treat in my hand she just either stares me in the eyes as I repeat the command over and over or ignores me completely by biting the ground or finding anything to redirect her attention. I know that rott's are smart dogs and they need to believe that what we ask them to do is going to benefit them but she needs to listen to me and I'm not always going to have treats. Since day one we've given her emphatic verbal praise for doing the right thing, soft correction when she's wrong and sometimes treats when she does something extraordinarily well but she only does what she's supposed to when she wants to. She knows the commands and chooses not to respond to them. Is this common? How can I correct? Can I correct?

Firstly, do not carry the pup! She has 4 paws to carry her around!
As for the biting...You know this pup was taken from her littermates too early. As a result she missed out on her bite inhibition lessons. So, when pup becomes over-stimulated and is nipping, growling and carrying on; you can calmly put her in her crate. After a few seconds, give her something to chew on, like a cold nylabone or a marrow bone to soothe her teeth. This will give her a time-out to wind down, and you also! It is normal for puppies to explore their world using their mouths, however, we don't want to encourage them to put teeth on human flesh. You can calmly, but firmly say: "Uh-Uh!, no bite"! when she attempts to gnaw you or your g/f. Continue the redirection. Pups are easily distracted. Just be sure not to holler as it may only stimulate her more. You can also put her leash on and take her outdoors! Be confident and upbeat! Remember, she will be looking to you for leadership. Tuck some soft treats in your pocket and teach her a trick or a fun game. Enjoy the puppyhood!
(For more info on puppy biting; you can click on the Search icon above, then on "advanced search". Look in the Puppy Development archives. I am certain you will find some excellent info there. (There are many excellent contributors, but also look for posts by Judi W)

As for the training, bear in mind that she is very young and immature. Do not expect too much from a pup so young. One thing you do not want to do is repeat a command "over and over". You are teaching her that she does not have to comply until she hears a command a dozen times or more! Instead, you give the command ONE TIME! If she does not comply, then you SHOW her what it is you want. Be patient though, this is a very young dog. Teaching her to "sit" or "down" or "come" is fine, but do not expect such a young pup to hold a "stay". She is too easily distracted at such a young age. Let her be a puppy! Be sure to enroll her in a puppy k class at 12 weeks. She can learn some social skills, and get an intro to some basic obedience. You can also look into a tracking class or another fun activity to keep her mentally and physically active! Keep it positive. There is no place for harsh punishments, nagging, or ill-tempers with a pup. She needs to look to you for leadership! This is how the bonding begins.
Best wishes-
kathy