Newbie with question re neutering/dominance

[Chicky Abby]

Hi everyone,

I've been reading the posts for two months now and finally decided it was time to join! I'm hoping for some feedback on my puppy problem. Here's some background info:

Sebastian is a purebred male; we adopted him at 8 weeks from a neighbor. Long story short- they could not handle him. His background is little sketchy-the neighbors said they too got him from a friend; and they had him for 5 weeks. So it appears my little guy did not benefit from having litter mates or learning bite inhibition from Mom since he was only with her 2-3 weeks at best. His tail is not docked, dewclaws intact; we started his vaccinations immediately and now he's at almost 5 months of age and fully vaccinated. He's healthy and at 55 pounds already. 8 weeks - 12 weeks was a little rough- he then learned to behave properly when leashed, knows sit/stay/down/paw/kiss/nice, etc. His biting seemed to have stopped altogether. As of a week ago- it's been a nightmare. With my husband he is fine- I seem to be the problem. He has started pulling on the leash and at 55 pounds I am finding a hard time controlling him. I have a flat collar on him that has a chain slack similar to a prong collar so it will choke when it needs to. I walk him on my left side- I praactice heel- I reward , etc. For no explained reason he starts to jump around me, on me, nipping at anything he can grab, actually I think it's really biting at this point. When the physical battle starts, I cannot get him to a sit stay; it's now a full down and dirty fight which results in me trying to pin him down to submission. I honestly don't think i win, because I am not strong enough. I usually end up getting him into an 'up' position and get the collar as high around his neck as possible so I can walk him home. The whol time he is snapping, trying to get at me. I understand dogs live in the moment so when we get home I try to get him back into obediance mode; sit , stay, reward, etc. A couple of pets and back in the crate. So what is it- is it time to neueter him? I don't think he's a dominant male- he's usually fearful aggressive and until recently was quite happy to please me. He just seems to be regressing. Thoughts?

[Mavides]

Neutering is a must because of where you got him from...but I wouldn't expect it to help with the problems you're having right now. Best thing to do would be to find a trainer to help you out in person...someone experienced with Rotties should be able to help you get things back under control in no time. I would recommend at least a choke chain if not a prong collar though...I think the collar you are currently using is a Martindale(sp?) and although it prevents the dog from slipping out of the collar, it's pretty much useless for training a strong breed. He's growing up and needs to be reminded in a firm, but fair way that you are still the boss of him! :)

[spidey]

You need to get into obedience classes with him. It's not a dominance issue, it's a training issue, dominance is a much-misunderstood and very overused term with dogs and it's almost never relevant. You also need to stop "pinning him into submission" immediately, this isn't accomplishing anything useful and can be very dangerous. He should be neutered regardless, but that won't help him be trained, you need to get into regular classes with a good trainer and plan to stay there for a few years (training is not optional for dogs like Rottweilers, they were bred to work, you need to give them a job to do). You need to learn how to train him.

[marianne]

You have a dog who needs training. But not only the dog,you have to also learn about handling a strong willed Rottweiler. It can be done. If you have a Kennel Club close call them to start puppy/ obed.classes. You will really enjoy the expenence.

[Chicky Abby]

Thanks everyone- I've been looking for training classes to join. He is getting neuetred this coming week- I decided. I'm confused on the submissive point though - and I agree, maybe watching too much Dog Whisperer- but I thought that was a needed technique to establish alpha role- wouldn't the bitch quickly slam the puppy to the ground to reinstate order and then it's all hugs and kisses afterwards? I'm training him with the soft chewy snack rewards and sometime I think he is performing just for the reward. I was also reading up on clicker- is clicker training something I can do in combination with obediance classes? Thanks again for all your help. I see I just missed the Rott Stock in NY- I'm in Staten Island, I wish I could have been there with my Sebastian!

[spidey]

Do a search here on "alpha roll". There have been plenty of very informative discussions here, and the Dog Whisperer's ideas about this are 30 years out of date. The so-called alpha roll idea is based on misinterpretations of wolf behaviour and is pretty well completely discredited now, it's not a behaviour dogs normally employ unless they are intending to kill each other and besides that, you're not a dog, and if you start down that road you do NOT want to end up where it leads: you're teaching your dog that all he has to do if he wants to move up in the world is take you down, and do you really think you're going to take down a full-grown Rottweiler? Think again. Violence and adverarial methods do not promote a respectful working relationship, work WITH your dog, he's a puppy for goodness' sake! And in addition to that, this behaviour is because he's not trained, he doesn't understand what you want, not anything to do with "dominance", so what is this WWF thing supposed to be accomplishing? Alpha canines don't do this, they don't squabble, they act like leaders. If anything, you're teaching your dog that you're NOT the leader. Also, you should be teaching loose-leash polite walking, not heeling, at this point, heeling is a formal, difficult behaviour, and not something you should be expecting a 5 month old (or any dog) to be doing for a whole walk. In other words, you need to get into obedience classes with a good trainer who will teach you how to train your dog, as well as what is reasonable to expect from him and what is not.

And yes, clicker training is compatible with everything, I clicker train my dog, especially when we are first working on something. I'm sorry if this comes across as harsh, I don't intend it that way, but you really do need to get into classes with a good trainer (check the AKC's website for obedience clubs close to you, that's usually a great first place to look), you could also do some reading, Jean Donaldson's "The Culture Clash" is a great place to start. Good luck and welcome to the forums.

[AngelBunny]

In addition to getting yourselves into class and neutering him, how much physical exercise are you giving him? A walk around the block once or twice a day isn't enough exercise for a healthy, young dog;

[Valentine]

One thing about Ceasar Millan is that he is sexist against women.
He believes that women shouldnt train dogs because they are too weak willed and apply affection before dicipline! I believe that, I myself am strong willed AND I have alot of patience (wearing thin lately...but still there lol) If i were weak willed I would have given up on Valentine a long time ago...he screeches, whines and barks in his crate all night and i get a minimum of 4 hours of sleep before i have to go to school for 8 hours! But what Cease Millan does is in fact out of date and very dangerous for a person who cannot control a 55 lb dog! Wait until he is 90lbs!! Very dangerous situation indeed. Get a prong collar for him. My pitbull is 70lbs and a prong collar worked wonders for her. (I seriously almost cried when i got home because i was able to have a nice long walk with her!!) Do you know how to use a prong collar? If not i suggest that you look it up here on this forum. Lastly, please listen to what these people have to say...getting a trainer should be #1 on your to do list for your dog. Also you should be spending more time with him. Dont expect him to listen to you if your husband trained him...start off slow..feed him his dinner by hand, walk him IN the yard for now, and practice practice practice those commands...

[dogsbydoug]

Originally Posted by Chicky Abby

I see I just missed the Rott Stock in NY- I'm in Staten Island, I wish I could have been there with my Sebastian!

Not sure how far this is for you but Port Chester Obedience Training Club (in White Plains NY) is a good place to go for training. I've attended seminars and obedience matches there several times and I hear good things about their formal group classes as well.

Their website is Port Chester Obedience Training Club - White Plains, NY

[Chicky Abby]

Hi, Thanks again for all the valuable feedback. I bought 'The Culture Clash' yesterday and I settling in for a good read tonight. As far as excercise; Sebastian is by myself in the crate M-F. Hubbie takes him for a 30 min walk at 5:30 and I follow up with an hour walk at 8ish. On weekends- he runs to his hearts content- I spend 1.5 hours in the morning sat and sun where we walk to base ball filed and we practice recall/ and I throw a toy for him to retrieve. At night on sat and sun he gets another 60 minute brisk walk. I am going to call my local kennel this week for OB classes (went to petsmart last night- from what I see the trainers had no real credentials so I am pursuing others). In terms of primary caretaker- it's split. I am the one who handles the a.m. schedule; my husband the pm. At night when we finally sit down from a long day, sebastian is with us on the floor in front of the couch playing with a chew toy. He does spend a lot of time with us.

Can someone please speak to an issue I raised in my preliminary post- do dogs regress for a bit as they go through the puppy cycle? I swear, EVERYTHING he did when he was 8-12 weeks he is now doing again. In terms of affection and women being in a dominant role- I have been trying very hard not to just give affection for no reason.

I'm trying folks- I love this guy- we made a committment to him and we are trying to give him all he needs to be a healthy sociable rottie. But I admit, this last week he is wearing my nerves to the bone. Today is a gorgeous day in NYC so we will spend time with him in the park this afternoon.

[spidey]

Good for you! I'm sure you'll enjoy it. There's a thread here with a link to a great article about Cesar Millan and how he compares to Ian Dunbar (whose book "Before & After You Get Your Puppy" is also a must-read). To answer your question, during the first two years or so, most dogs go through stages where you can't stand them, just like humans do. Be patient and consistent, and go back a few steps when this happens - they are growing and maturing, their brains and bodies are changing, training a dog to be pleasant to live with is an ongoing process, and not one that's ever really finished, but if you are fair, reasonable and consistent, make sure your dog is well-exercised and learn how best to train your dog, you'll find it gets much easier.

[shybird]

You have gotten some pretty good advice so far. Get into class, get more exercise and stop watching The Dog Whisperer. All of which I agree with whole heartedly. I would like to comment on the exercise. I have found that walking alone only tires me and not the dog. I am getting older and don't have the energy that I once did. So I bought a 50 foot leadline and let them go to the end of it and call them back. Then they go to the end again and I call them back. They go double or triple the distance that I do in the same amount of time and I am working on the Come command at the same time. They usually walk to the end and run back getting actual exercise on the walk and I am not ready for bed when we return. I am guessing that the jumping up and nipping at you is either because he wants to play or that he his trying to make you hurry more because he is full of energy and wants to use it. If you are not in an area where you can let him safely out 50 ft ahead of you, maybe a 20 ft would work. The idea is to get him to expend that energy constructively.

[rottielover2004]

until winter that is what I do, I am a single mom, so walking Harley is hard, but I have an area that I can run and play with him on a 26ft lead. Practicing training as I go. I can also watch my daughter in the window, So everyone is happy.

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by Chicky Abby

Hi everyone,

I've been reading the posts for two months now and finally decided it was time to join! I'm hoping for some feedback on my puppy problem. Here's some background info:

Sebastian is a purebred male; we adopted him at 8 weeks from a neighbor. Long story short- they could not handle him. His background is little sketchy-the neighbors said they too got him from a friend; and they had him for 5 weeks. So it appears my little guy did not benefit from having litter mates or learning bite inhibition from Mom since he was only with her 2-3 weeks at best. His tail is not docked, dewclaws intact; we started his vaccinations immediately and now he's at almost 5 months of age and fully vaccinated. He's healthy and at 55 pounds already. 8 weeks - 12 weeks was a little rough- he then learned to behave properly when leashed, knows sit/stay/down/paw/kiss/nice, etc. His biting seemed to have stopped altogether. As of a week ago- it's been a nightmare. With my husband he is fine- I seem to be the problem. He has started pulling on the leash and at 55 pounds I am finding a hard time controlling him. I have a flat collar on him that has a chain slack similar to a prong collar so it will choke when it needs to. I walk him on my left side- I praactice heel- I reward , etc. For no explained reason he starts to jump around me, on me, nipping at anything he can grab, actually I think it's really biting at this point. When the physical battle starts, I cannot get him to a sit stay; it's now a full down and dirty fight which results in me trying to pin him down to submission. I honestly don't think i win, because I am not strong enough. I usually end up getting him into an 'up' position and get the collar as high around his neck as possible so I can walk him home. The whol time he is snapping, trying to get at me. I understand dogs live in the moment so when we get home I try to get him back into obediance mode; sit , stay, reward, etc. A couple of pets and back in the crate. So what is it- is it time to neueter him? I don't think he's a dominant male- he's usually fearful aggressive and until recently was quite happy to please me. He just seems to be regressing. Thoughts?

You are using what is called a Martingale collar.

First of all, why is there a physical battle? What types of rewards are you using to train him? What are your responses to him if his attention floats from you and onto other things? Is there constant tension on the lead? And finally, have you attended any formal puppy or basic obedience classes?

Neutering him at a young age will not change his temperament, however, will likely make him easier to handle for you if you are a novice owner. Personally, I like a 'mature' dog both mentally and physically. There have been studies that show a correlation between early speutering and osteosarcoma. Neutering will render him incapable of reproducing, and will likely keep him from roaming. The lack of testosterone may 'buffer' some behavioral traits, but will not teach him manners - training teaches manners.

Learning how to deal with your dog in a productive manner and positive manner should be job one. He likely listens to your husband because your husband carries himself as a leader more than you. Research qualified trainers in your area - typically folks involved with breed clubs and all breed clubs can steer you in the right direction. Beware of 'boxstore' trainers, as they generally are limited in their abilities and understanding of basic behavior, and especially dogs with some of the likely handicaps your boy suffers from.

He is young, but it's high time you get a handle on him, and learn to do it in a manner that enriches your relationship. He did not have the best of beginnings so be sure to apprise the trainers you speak with of his complete history as best you know it.

Good luck.