prong for 4 mo old pup??

[fostermom]

This question is for my son, not me. He called me the other night. His pup is proving to be quite a challenge. She is VERY headstrong and determined to do everything her way!! He took her to puppy classes the other night and she was the "bad girl" in the class, barking, jumping on top of a little pug. If she doesn't get her way, she'll growl and jump/nip. The instructor, who is totally into positive reinforcement only, recommended giving her treats if she did ANYTHING appropriate during class!!
He asked if it would be ok to use a prong, something recommended by a Nutro's rep at the pet store. He said he's tried using a flat buckle collar and she just pulls until her front feet are off the ground and she's gagging/throwing up. He said they put a prong on her at the store and the difference was like night and day. I suggested he do the "make like a tree" approach until she stops pulling and he said she just won't stop!!! I suggested the "stop walking and when she looks at you say in a happy voice to come, turn and walk the other direction" approach.....he said she won't....she'll just stay where she was and make you drag her. I suggested pumping treats into her when she's anywhere near your side and he said she'll ignore treats and just start pulling (plus he said the treats are giving her diarrhea!!). I asked if he's tried a no-pull harness which he's looking into. But I didn't know how to answer the prong question as I've never used one. So is four months too young???
He's worked with her extensively...she's housebroken, knows all kinds of "tricks" (roll over, speak, sit up, shake, fetch). When we picked her up from the breeder both his and my impression was that she was probably the dominant pup in the litter (even though we had asked for an "easy" dog for him). She is VERY bright and apparantely determined to do everything HER way. He's really open to any suggestions. Thanks for any replys. I've run out of suggestions.

[hokisteph5]

You could do a search, but IIRC, most on here recommend prong collars for older puppies/young adults. To me, it doesn't sound like a lot of training's gone into her yet about not pulling.

[jakesfostermom]

Because she is in a formal class, where a trainer has seen her, and she has had a prong collar on and responded nicely - I would not see a problem using one to gain the control needed to teach the commands she needs to learn. I am NOT supporting puppies on prongs - but this girl might be one of those dogs that at four months, will benefit - as long as the training continues in a positive manner. Our class has a 7 month old GSD that the trainer put on a prong, and quite literally - the owner got tears in her eyes at how much better she could maintain his attention to teach him the commands - and this was the FIRST 15 minutes he ever had the collar on - he is an amazing dog - who needed a different approach - the prong allowed that and both owner and dog are better for it! Good luck to your son and his girl - I remember you telling us that he wanted an easy dog and likely got the spirited one of the litter - good for him for getting her into classes as soon as he has - and I hope he keeps it up! (I realize I might be bashed for my opinion - but with a trainer in place - my opinion is that this might be fine for this particular pup - as long as training is always positive.)

[fostermom]

He had also asked IF he were to try using a prong collar, would he need to continue using it permanently or would it only be necessary until he could train for a heel and then could he switch back to a flat collar or possibly a choke collar? I had heard that with e-collars, the dog KNOWS when it is off and will only offer desired behaviors while wearing it so I wasn't sure if the same would apply to a prong. At this point, using a choke on the pup is certainly NOT an option but from what I've read, the prong won't damage a dog's neck the way a choke might. I did send him a link to a no-pull harness (one where the leash clips in front) but I've really never tried those either. If anyone has any other suggestions on what might work, they would be appreciated.
Oh..he has done some work with her using a clicker (for other bdhaviors, not teaching a heel) but I'm not sure whether that would work for her...I used it on one of my dogs but she apparantely is a dedicated, go to the end of the leash and P.....U......L.....L pup. My guy was motivated to stay by my side to get the treats....she's not. Again, thanks for any replys.

[dogsbydoug]

Originally Posted by fostermom

He had also asked IF he were to try using a prong collar, would he need to continue using it permanently or would it only be necessary until he could train for a heel and then could he switch back to a flat collar or possibly a choke collar?

YES, it is a training tool - he can wean her off the prong, much like weaning off of giving a treat for every correct execution of a desired behavior...

I used a prong in EVERY training class with my older boy, including advanced competition classes, until I attended a Diane Bauman seminar recently and she asked me why I had a prong on a dog that is ready to enter trials...since I can't use it in the ring, why use in training if he's ready to NOT use it?

Of course, for everyday walking when I may encounter an idiot, he is on the prong...but in class, no prong as he now knows what I want - buckle collar for him in class.

[JemarsSerena]

I agree with Doug. My whole purpose in using a prong is to not need to use it. It's on while training the behavior. Once a dog learns the behavior, the prong is slowly weaned off.

[alexav]

Here's a link to an excellent article written by Suzanne Clothier.

FLYING DOG PRESS: "Selecting Training Equipment" article by Suzanne Clothier

[spidey]

from what I've read, the prong won't damage a dog's neck the way a choke might.

Would this be the famous "German study" which doesn't seem to actually exist? Lots of people reference it, but I did a little research project into finding out about this mysterious study and found that EVERY reference to it references the same comment made by ONE person. Do a search here and you'll find discussion about this. As far as I can tell, there has NEVER been a scientific study done into any permanent damage caused by collars, or if there has, it has never been published in a peer-reviewed journal. I'd love for someone to provide some actual proof that this study ever took place, other than the references to it, which appear all over the place, but none of which actually provide any details which would prove that it actually exists (if it's an actual scientific study, it should appear in a peer-reviewed journal, like any other scientific study).

[livertw]

I found the Gentle Leader head harness very effective with my stubborn female pup.

[fostermom]

Thank you alexav for the link...I think that is one I sent to my son to help in his decision on what to use for his pup. Spikey, is this the "study" you were referencing???
Prong Collar Info
It references autopsy results after following dogs lifelong and subdividing them into two categories: ones who used chokes and ones who used prongs. The end result was significantly more injuries with dogs who used chokes.
Livertw, he did call me last night and ask about the gentle leader....yet another training tool I have no personal experience with other than knowing that several trainers I used passed them out like candy at classes. The dogs that used them NEVER looked happy and again I read that they pose a risk of injuring the neck if the dog rushes to the end of the lead and is stopped abruptly. The article above addresses that as well. But I hate to pass out advice to him on these when I've never used them, that is why I appreciate this forum so much. I appreciate everyones input.

[fostermom]

This link seemed a bit more specific as to what studies are out there:
In the spring newsletter from the Canadian Association of Professional Pet Dog Trainers (CAPPDT) is a brief editorial by Diana Hilliard. She states something that I have believed for quite some time. "Disturbing studies are surfacing (regarding the use of choke collars). A 1992 paper published in Sweden by Anders Hallgren examined 400 dogs from various training clubs. They found 63% of them had spinal problems and of those, 65% had problematic behaviour." Specifically aggression. Hilliard goes on to say that the study specifically named choke collars as being dangerous. She also brings up a study by veterinarian William Ingram who, after examining dogs with cervical (neck) anomalies, stated that 91% (of these dogs) had been exposed to harsh jerks on the leash, or they had a long history of pulling or straining at the end of a lead.

[spidey]

I'd be interested in seeing which scientific, peer-reviewed journals these studies were published in. Again, I'm just interested in actually confirming that these were real, scientifically-acceptable studies, since the last time I checked, there were many references to that same Anne Marie Silverton seminar, but no real details about the actual study itself - when, where and how was it done, what criteria were used, where were the results published, etc.

[AngelBunny]

In addition to training and living under NILIF, how much physical exercise is the puppy getting?

[alexav]

Since the topic of head halters has been brought up...here's a good article regarding them. (Yeah, I think Suzanne Clothier writes great articles. )

The Problem With Head Halters - Article by Suzanne Clothier

In my training kit, I have prongs, chokes, a head halter, an e-collar, buckle collars, martingale collars, and agitation collars. The collar I use COMPLETELY depends on the dog I am training. I have even used a prong, a choke, AND a head halter at the same time on the same dog! lol

The most important tools of all are KNOWLEDGE and skill for correct timing. LEARN how to use EACH tool from someone who has proved they understand how to truly communicate with dogs through that particular piece of equipment.

What I find offensive is someone who uses one tool on every single dog they come in contact with because it's the only one they THINK they know how to use.
IME, those who "poo-poo" a certain piece of equipment, and condemn its very existence just don't know how to use it and what circumstances warrant it's successful use.
Certainly, we all know "trainers" who misuse equipment and the adverse affects the dogs can suffer and CAUTIONING someone about using a particular piece of equipment is different than condemning it.

[fostermom]

Angel Bunny,
Thanks..I was thinking the same thing...I have already told him he really needs to implement NILF on this pup and sent him a couple of links. I'm not sure how much exercise....I know both he and his wife are walking the pup quite a bit but I think his concern is if he continues walking, even though the pup is pulling, then he's reinforcing the behavior. If he stops walking and tries to correct the pup, the walk basically ends as the pup isn't responding to usual techniques. His yard isn't completely fenced so she can't run free there and the walks are becoming battles with her.