prong for 4 mo old pup??

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by fostermom

This question is for my son, not me. He called me the other night. His pup is proving to be quite a challenge. She is VERY headstrong and determined to do everything her way!! He took her to puppy classes the other night and she was the "bad girl" in the class, barking, jumping on top of a little pug. If she doesn't get her way, she'll growl and jump/nip. The instructor, who is totally into positive reinforcement only, recommended giving her treats if she did ANYTHING appropriate during class!!
He asked if it would be ok to use a prong, something recommended by a Nutro's rep at the pet store. He said he's tried using a flat buckle collar and she just pulls until her front feet are off the ground and she's gagging/throwing up. He said they put a prong on her at the store and the difference was like night and day. I suggested he do the "make like a tree" approach until she stops pulling and he said she just won't stop!!! I suggested the "stop walking and when she looks at you say in a happy voice to come, turn and walk the other direction" approach.....he said she won't....she'll just stay where she was and make you drag her. I suggested pumping treats into her when she's anywhere near your side and he said she'll ignore treats and just start pulling (plus he said the treats are giving her diarrhea!!). I asked if he's tried a no-pull harness which he's looking into. But I didn't know how to answer the prong question as I've never used one. So is four months too young???
He's worked with her extensively...she's housebroken, knows all kinds of "tricks" (roll over, speak, sit up, shake, fetch). When we picked her up from the breeder both his and my impression was that she was probably the dominant pup in the litter (even though we had asked for an "easy" dog for him). She is VERY bright and apparantely determined to do everything HER way. He's really open to any suggestions. Thanks for any replys. I've run out of suggestions.

I dare say that if your son is creative enough to teach a 4month old party tricks like rollover, speak, sit up and shake, that he should be creative enough to teach her to walk on a loose lead without using a prong collar.

4months of age is really too young to be 'teaching' any behavior using anything other than positive reinforement (by getting her attention and rewarding the good behavior) or negative punishment (witholding reward for non compliance).

Sounds to me like some attention work is in order, and that he needs to become more fun to be near when walking. A puppy kindergarten class with a good instructor should give him the basic tools he needs at the moment.

[fostermom]

Poohbearsmom,
She is going to a puppy kindergarten class but has just started it. Actually, she learned all those tricks when she was just barely three months old (I did say she was VERY bright)...it was hilarious to watch. She'd THROW herself into the command so fast that he hardly got the command out of his mouth and she was doing it, including the down and roll over. ALOT of enthusiasm!!! Sometimes after a command if she didn't get her reward fast enough, she'd continue on offering up the other tricks as well (she'd throw herself into a down, roll over, jump up into a sit, bark, offer paw, etc...it was soooo funny!!!) And yes he is using positive reinforcement....it just doesn't seem to be working with the walking on leash with not pulling (she's pulling so hard she's walking on her back feet with the front feet up in the air)...that's why he asked about the prong collar. He's tried offering treats when she's at his side as she's very food motivated but on walks, she is more interested in going where SHE wants to go then get the treats. How does he make himself more interesting than where ever she wants to go???

[groupieindenial]

JUST my 2 cents, IMHO a pinch collar for a 4 month old is not an option. How can you correct a puppy if she doesn't know what is expected from her??? Puppy training takes a LOT of patience. A LOT of patience...and diligence...and patience...and some more diligence.

[janinetj]

Originally Posted by groupieindenial

JUST my 2 cents, IMHO a pinch collar for a 4 month old is not an option. How can you correct a puppy if she doesn't know what is expected from her??? Puppy training takes a LOT of patience. A LOT of patience...and diligence...and patience...and some more diligence.

i totally agree here its not an option just alot of patience and training is needed

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by fostermom

Poohbearsmom,
She is going to a puppy kindergarten class but has just started it. Actually, she learned all those tricks when she was just barely three months old (I did say she was VERY bright)...it was hilarious to watch. She'd THROW herself into the command so fast that he hardly got the command out of his mouth and she was doing it, including the down and roll over. ALOT of enthusiasm!!! Sometimes after a command if she didn't get her reward fast enough, she'd continue on offering up the other tricks as well (she'd throw herself into a down, roll over, jump up into a sit, bark, offer paw, etc...it was soooo funny!!!) And yes he is using positive reinforcement....it just doesn't seem to be working with the walking on leash with not pulling (she's pulling so hard she's walking on her back feet with the front feet up in the air)...that's why he asked about the prong collar. He's tried offering treats when she's at his side as she's very food motivated but on walks, she is more interested in going where SHE wants to go then get the treats. How does he make himself more interesting than where ever she wants to go???

It's all about attention and fun.

Sounds like fewer distractions while working on this would do a world of good as well.
She is indeed smart.... now... let's see if the boy can outsmart the puppy.

[fostermom]

Just heard from my daughter-in-law...they are going to try the no-pull harness first as I haven't heard anything negative about that....I really think the problem is that the pup has soooo much energy and gets soooo excited on walks that she's turned into a hyper-active/ADD kid who can't/won't listen on walks....and the issue then becomes does he allow her to pull on walks so that he can exercise her??? If he doesn't allow her to pull, she doesn't get exercised cause the walks go nowhere. Would allowing her to pull while walking down the street be ok as long as he "trains" her to not pull in the back yard where there are fewer distractions only confuse her....I'm really trying to figure out a way to tire her out and still teach her appropriate leash walking.
Hopefully the no-pull harness will help. If anyone else has had this problem, what worked for you??

[fostermom]

Oh, BTW, Spidey:
Did find this reference: Anders Hallgren
Swedish Vet. Study
Animal Behavior Consultants Newsletter
July, 1992
Vol 9, No 2

Can't find the actual article, but apparantly, at least THIS study on injury with prong collars does exist, LOL!!!

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by fostermom

Just heard from my daughter-in-law...they are going to try the no-pull harness first as I haven't heard anything negative about that....I really think the problem is that the pup has soooo much energy and gets soooo excited on walks that she's turned into a hyper-active/ADD kid who can't/won't listen on walks....and the issue then becomes does he allow her to pull on walks so that he can exercise her??? If he doesn't allow her to pull, she doesn't get exercised cause the walks go nowhere. Would allowing her to pull while walking down the street be ok as long as he "trains" her to not pull in the back yard where there are fewer distractions only confuse her....I'm really trying to figure out a way to tire her out and still teach her appropriate leash walking.
Hopefully the no-pull harness will help. If anyone else has had this problem, what worked for you??

How about exercising her in the yard before the walk to alleviate some of the excess energy? I find that my pup can pay attention better if she's bounced around the backyard for a few minutes before we start to train.

I have yet to see a 4mos old puppy (I've had several pups of my own, and at least 100 go through my class) that cannot be taught to walk nicely on a lead with the use of treats, fun, a plain old fashioned buckle collar and a little imagination.

Anytime a new behavior is taught, it's best to work on it at home with no distractions. Getting the pup to be successful under these circumstances allows the pup to actually learn what's expected of it, and then the distractions of the world can be introduced.

A dog only learns if the leash is loose, otherwise all the dog is thinking about is the tight leash.

The best training tool we possess is the one between our ears.

[spidey]

Originally Posted by fostermom

Oh, BTW, Spidey:
Did find this reference: Anders Hallgren
Swedish Vet. Study
Animal Behavior Consultants Newsletter
July, 1992
Vol 9, No 2

Can't find the actual article, but apparantly, at least THIS study on injury with prong collars does exist, LOL!!!

A mention of a study in a behaviour newsletter isn't a publication of a study in a peer-reviewed scientific journal, though. This is what I'm talking about - there's all kinds of references, but so far no actual hard data. Thanks though!