14 week female..need help

[PrincessLeia]

What do you guys think? Here is an email I sent to my breeder. It is in regards to our latest problem. Our 14 week old female is starting to lunge, growl and bite at our legs/feet/ankles. This agressive behavior is starting to concern me. The email details everything we are doing for the dog. Thanks


Hello *******,



I am concerned with Leia’s behavior. This morning I took her in the yard on her leash. We are getting a new furnace and air conditioner, so the installers were there putting it in. She greeted them and allowed them to pet her with no problems. I then took her around back to go to the bathroom and she started jumping up and down, running, then growling and lunging towards me. She was then biting at my feet and ankles while growling. Francine and I spend a great deal of our time with her. I train her every day. She knows sit, paw, down, over (yes she even rolls over already), watch (she keeps focus on me even while moving in a complete circle around her), and she is starting to learn drop (when she fetches and brings a ball back to me). She was even playing hide and go seek with us and as soon as we say where is…….Francine or John, she will start to search all over the house until she finds us. She is a very smart dog. We have not left her alone for more than 4 hours (in her crate of course) since we brought her home. If Francine and I both work during the day my Dad or my brother watch her. We take her on one or two walks daily depending on how hot it is. She meets people all over the neighborhood as well as other dogs and never once has she growled or shown any aggression towards anyone, including strange kids that come up to her to pet her. She has been to one puppy class already and did not show any aggression to the other dogs and owners. I think we are doing everything we can to make her a properly socialized and well rounded dog. I however am really concerned about the growling, lunging, and biting. We tried turning her over on her back like you said before and tapping her nose, but that didn’t seem to do much, you just put her back down and she’s right back at it. In fact any type of correction seems to make it worse. I often have to grab her by the collar and put her in her crate for a time out. She comes out of the crate and she’s right back at it. She is getting too big, to be doing this and if she continues doing it when she gets larger, I am afraid we are going to have to give her up for fear of her biting someone. I practice many things with her to show I am the alpha. I make her sit before we go out. I make sure I am the first one out. I make her go through several things before I feed her. I even pretend to eat from her bowl prior to giving it to her. She always sits, goes down and rolls over before she is allowed to eat. We picked up all of her toys and she is only allowed to play with one at a time after she earns it by performing several tricks. I read about this on the Internet. They call it NILF. Nothing In Life is Free. I am running out of things to try with her. I was hoping the puppy classes along with everything we are doing could change her behavior, but it only looks like it is getting worse.



She had worms when we first brought her home. We took her to the vet the day after we picked her up from you. They said this is common in puppies and they treated her. She then somehow infected herself again, this time she had round worm. They also said it was very easy for her to re infect herself. This was a week ago and they treated her for this. When she is sleeping, sometimes she will wake up yelping for no apparent reason (almost like she was dreaming). This doesn’t happen all of the time, but sometimes she will be moving her legs (kind of like twitching). I also noticed one time she was doing this when she was lying next to me on the floor and I could see her eyes moving back and forth rapidly. I know in humans when we are in the deepest part of sleep, our eyes move back and fourth rapidly so I am assuming she was in a deep sleep.



Any help would be appreciated because we really love this dog and want her to succeed. I think we are doing everything we can for her, but I am really concerned about the aggression.



Thanks,



John



--

[PrincessLeia]

respons(s) from breeder:

John , Yes she is still challenging you for a alpha role. you are going to actually have to scare the jeebies out of her make her run with her tail if she had one,, between her legs get mad she will sense it and respect may finally come.. I recently got 2 pup's back well they are a year old now a couple with 2 kids got them from NY and they ate their living room furniture they chewed their wood work around the house the only exercise they got was walks in the dog park.the Lady had said they are totally spoiled she left them do whatever they wanted. and they had everything a dog could want,, but their antics became too much for them they did not seem to totally enforce a consisitancy of discipline although they had a retired K9 police officer come to their house and work with them they listend to him but not the people they lived with.. well they brought them back,, wonderful dogs no agression just want to run and play all the dog's here get along well with them,, but I have them adopted out already.. See.. Leigh know's you,, that is why she is good with others and you on the other hand is her challenge to overcome and make you be in her pack..and bow to her and put you on the run she has to learn!!,, even try a shock collar along with voice command when she starts it.. have a rolled up paper ready crack her when she is coming at you to bite you're leg hollar yell chase her let her grobble to come back into you're pack.. might sound mean but sometimes too much niceness with a little one is not the answer,!!,they are so smart they will take advantage of you.. put a muzzle on her for a while when she starts it.. make her earn you're attention respect.. I don't think she is going to bite just any one for no reason when she get's older, and the sleeping and twitching yelping all normal I seen mine do it too,, eat grass normal,, one thing you have to realize is nobody is going to make her listen or correct the problem she is giving you But YOU they have been proven to be stubborn and hard headed dogs, but that is what makes them so wonderful once all their tricks have run out and failed.. sound's funny but that is a Rottie for ya..dont let her be a terror,, knock her down to ehere she needs to be.. I really hope she worrks out .. If she only knew how good she has it she would surely straighten up.. would say worm her twice a month for a while till you get all the worm eggs out of her.. sometimes they are hard to get rid of.. let me know how thing's go ... good Luck



2nd response:

John,, I just wanted to add and tell you it sound's like you are doing everything right ..even a lot more thing's than I ever thought of to do with my dog's but I think what has to happen is just the good o'l fashion whoopin when the time hit's as I said in my other meassage get mad really mad at her let her sense it..It may be hard to do being that you and Francine seem like very mellow easy going, nice people,, but put on the act and just know it is for her own good..dont be afraid of her at all that is what she want's she know's when you are.. all . my dog's are so in tune with me I don't have to speak to get them to do what I want a look a hand signal is all I need to do.. and if I am upset about something or mad they know with out me saying a word. I am alpha all the dog's yesterday came to a tree with me in the yard and I sat down everyone of them 7 Rotties there was.. a visitor here with a friend who got a dog off me a year and a half ago he made the 7 and 2 bostons all came over and laid sat all around me when i finally got up to move everyone followed It was awesome a really cool feeling be head of the pack and nobody fights ..if I would have started a fight they all would probly join in just like wolves in the wild.. so don't give up because the hardest thing is giving up a animal you love because it is being a brat. the lady from NY is really upset about what she had to do but she couldn't decide on one to keep and would feel guilty about one or the other that is why she sent them both back? I assured her I would place them in good homes best of homes with experienced owners and keep in touch now and then as they grow. once again Good luck with her keep up the good work,, just get aggressive as she is when the time is needed oh also after you do don't put her in the crate she likes it... just let her out and act still mad don't love up to her right away.and don't let her back into you're circle until you see sign's of submission... then repeat if necessary....

[hokisteph5]

What you've described sounds like normal puppy behavior. I would continue with the puppy classes and then move on to obedience when she's older. Also, feel free to talk to not just your breeder, but also your trainer. Even if they don't cover your issue in class, mine have always been willing to offer suggestions when asked.

Here are a couple of other threads to help you out. They deal with how you can handle puppy biting, lunging, etc. If you want to look at more, just search for "puppy biting."

http://www.rottweiler.net/forums/pup...t=puppy+biting
http://www.rottweiler.net/forums/pup...t=puppy+biting
http://www.rottweiler.net/forums/chi...t=puppy+biting

[Mavides]

Have you enrolled her in an obedience class? Advice for a problem such as yours really needs to be SHOWED rather than just typed. I don't think it sounds like you'll have a major problem with her when she grows up if you're able to calmly show her you're the boss now...but I think it will be much easier for you if you have a trainer (one that is experienced with Rotts of course!) working with you in person.

[PrincessLeia]

she just started 8 weeks of puppy classes
our local kennel association strarts an obedience class in september.

she is already enrolled in that class
it starts right after her puppy classes
i strated the puppy classes because i thought it was very important to get her involved in something like this right away so she can socialize with the other dogs and owners

i can try and record her behavior when she is lunging and acting agressive so i can show you

the best way to describe it is: her ears are pinned back, you can see the shites of her eyes
she shows teeth and lunges with her mouth open and makes contact on my skin with her teeth

she also violently yanks at her leash by shaking her head back and forth and jumping and twisting at the same time
this isnt a puppy biting at shoe laces or anything, she growls and lunges right at my feet or ankles with her mouth wide open

[hokisteph5]

Originally Posted by PrincessLeia

you are going to actually have to scare the jeebies out of her make her run with her tail if she had one,, between her legs get mad she will sense it and respect may finally come..

even try a shock collar along with voice command when she starts it.. have a rolled up paper ready crack her when she is coming at you to bite you're leg hollar yell chase her let her grobble to come back into you're pack.. might sound mean but sometimes too much niceness with a little one is not the answer,!!,they are so smart they will take advantage of you.. put a muzzle on her for a while when she starts it..

dont let her be a terror,, knock her down to ehere she needs to be..
2nd response:

John,, I just wanted to add and tell you it sound's like you are doing everything right ..even a lot more thing's than I ever thought of to do with my dog's but I think what has to happen is just the good o'l fashion whoopin when the time hit's as I said in my other meassage get mad really mad at her let her sense it...

I'm sure others will chime in, but I could not disagree more with your breeder's responses (snipped above) to your valid and common concerns. First, your puppy is only 14 weeks old. This is the time to establish trust with her, not "scare the jeebies out of her."

I would focus on positive reinforcement and would forego using a shock collar, rolled up newspaper, muzzle, etc. This breeder sounds really old school and I think if you read through some other threads, you'll find the concerns you're having are common in puppies.

[rottcrazed]

She does sound pretty normal to me overall. She is certainly a pushy little girl. Enroll her in classes and THAT is the best way to teach her the alpha is. By learning to listen and respond to YOU and not the other way around, she is becoming the subordinate in the relationahip.

Regarding what your breeder has said - seriously, she all but said beat her into submission. How long has she been breeding? That kind of advice is just going to make your problems bigger. She won't respect you if she is hit and flattened everytime she does something wrong.

Formal training is what you need with a trainer who can really hands-on help you with what you are dealing with.

Kristi

[PrincessLeia]

From all of the Rottweiler books I've read and all of the Internet sites and forums I have been to. The only thing I could find as a positive correction for a dog that is "out of control" Is to grab tehm by the scruffr and place them on their side while holding the muzzle shut (careful not to restrict the nostrills)

I have tried this, hoever it enrages her even more. Some time she will whelp but as soon as I let her go, she is back at it.

What concerns me about the breeder, is that she may not have bread well temoered dogs. If you look at the replies, you can see it appears she gave 2 puppies to one family ( a BIG no, no) and both puppies were returned because they chewed everything. Secondly when we picked this pup up she told us of another one of her dogs not letting the owner get in to her own bed. She didn't know what happpened with that one at the time. This puzzles us because we met both the dam and sire and both dogs were very well mannered. We even met her half sister and that dog also was well mannered. I am worried because all of these RED flags are starting to pop up and I am starting to feel like I am fighting a loosing battle. I guess I can pres on and continue with the puppy classes, then on with the obedience classes, then if there is truly no improvement or the puppy gets worse, I will be forced to give her up. At this point in time I don't know if I would want to bring her back to the breeder(even though we have a contract that states she will take her back at any time/ any reason). I almost think aq Rottweiler rescue would be a better choice (although I hope this is not the route i have to take)

thanks so far for all of the help

[Bruce Lanthier]

Originally Posted by PrincessLeia

From all of the Rottweiler books I've read and all of the Internet sites and forums I have been to. The only thing I could find as a positive correction for a dog that is "out of control" Is to grab tehm by the scruffr and place them on their side while holding the muzzle shut (careful not to restrict the nostrills)

I have tried this, hoever it enrages her even more. Some time she will whelp but as soon as I let her go, she is back at it.

A much better way to accomplish this is to hold her collar at the back of her neck. Try to have her sitting while doing this but even if she isn't just hold her still, by the collar, until she calms down. It may take 5-10 minutes but she will calm down. You need to be very calm and quiet yourself. As soon as she is calm tell her what a good girl she is and release her. Do this every time she is "out of control" even if it is right after you let her go. Now "out of control" is not just running around but MAY be running at people and biting, biting objects she should not etc.

[LavenderRott]

I don't think I would be discussing any more behavioural issues with the breeder. There is absolutely no need to scare or beat a young puppy into submission for what is normal, if not a bit rough, puppy play.

Training classes and NILIF should be the key to stopping the behaviours. But remember, consistancy is the key and it will take time.

[BostonRott]

First, I must ask: are two different people using the same account? The first post contains a very well written letter, with clear thoughts, correct spelling and grammar. The next post from this person (not the breeder's reply) contains very disjointed thoughts with poor spelling and grammar. If husband and wife are both posting, I would suggest you each start your own account so that we can keep track of who we are speaking with.

Second, your breeder's advice is archaic at best and cruel at worst. An e-collar on a 14wk old puppy?? NO ONE worth their salt would ever suggest that.

It does sound like you are doing things correctly in many aspects. NILIF is a great program, keep at it. However, you can stop pretending to eat from your dog's food, this does nothing for your dog. Also, do not pick the dog up, she has 4 feet that work perfectly well. If you need her to go somewhere, snap a leash on her and head off in that direction smartly. She will not allow herself to be drug.

Alpha rolls are a VERY archaic and BAD idea. NO mother dog EVER does this to their puppy. The only animal which rolls another animal is predator rolling prey. By rolling your puppy, you're scaring the heck out of her and making her fight for her life. Not a great way to build a trusting relationship.

I would work on increasing her exercise more. Find somehwere that she can go to run off-leash (a fenced baseball diamond, a non-busy woods hike).

For the biting, I would take her collar firmly in hand and CALMLY tell her "no!" Sit and hold the collar (with a stiff arm out away from you so she can't bite at you), until she stops being a fool. This can take minutes, but do not give in. If you raise your voice, she reads it as a game. You need to speak in a clear voice (not an excited one, and most people's voices, when mad, are "excited.") and with a low tone.

You have only been to one puppy class, so the statement that you've tried a class and things are all better is rather pointless. You need to give things time.

It sounds like you have a typical rambunctious puppy on your hands. She's shown you her intelligence, work with her in that aspect, rather than trying to bully her physically. The crate time-outs are a good idea and if she gets back into stuff after the first one, she can have another one.

[BostonRott]

Originally Posted by LavenderRott

I don't think I would be discussing any more behavioural issues with the breeder. There is absolutely no need to scare or beat a young puppy into submission for what is normal, if not a bit rough, puppy play.

Yes, it's a rather obvious fact that learning does not occur when one is terrified. If I took you somewhere and scared the bejezus out of you and tried to teach you math tables, I doubt your math would be very good.

[AngelBunny]

Your puppy's breeder is just full of advice, isn't he/she?

"... even try a shock collar along with voice command when she starts it.."

"..have a rolled up paper ready crack her when she is coming at you to bite you're [sic] leg..."

"...put a muzzle on her for a while when she starts it..."

Suggesting turning her over on her back and tapping her nose when she misbehaves.

The breeder would have served you better by strongly encouraging you to sign yourselves up for obed class (which I see you've done--very good).

And, it would have been more helpful if you were encouraged to exercise your puppy more. Mental and physical exercise are very helpful in wearing out puppy energy.

Frankly, if you plan on staying in touch with this breeder and asking for training advice, I suggest taking everything you're told with many grains of salt. It sounds to me that the breeder is stuck in methods used in the 1970s that have long been set aside, based on increased understanding in canine behavior and training methods.

[PrincessLeia]

first off, to BostpnRott:

This is John. I have been writing all of the posts. The second post in this thread is copied text from the breeder's reply to my email. Sorry if it looked as though we put that there. As you can see form the replies form the breeder, I was starting to get very concerned about things and even started to get confused. I really appreciate all of the help people have given us. I am going to exhaust all possiblities with her before er give her up. I briefly have been talking to the president of my local Rottweiler club and communicating the responses I have had from my breeder.

I am in pupply classes right now and already have obedience classes scheduled. If all goes well, I will continue in to more advanced obedience and possibly agility classes. Like I said previously, I spend a great deal of time with my puppy. I train with her every day. I am teaching her new things and reinforcing things we already learned. We take her on two walks almost every day. Sometimes just once when it is too hot outside. Lately we have had temps in the 90's. We have a 6 foot fence in the backyard, so she can run off leash back there. That is when I seem to have the most encounters with her "agressive" behavior. I will throw something for her to fetch and if she doesnt go get it, I will walk towards it and that is when she starts her "attack" She has also done this with my father the last time he watched her. We have a garden and sometimes she will go in it and rip off plant leaves (no poisonous plants in there). I will get up and approach her and that is another time for her to attack. She rarely attacks me when I am walking her on her leach (away form our house)

Like I said before she has not once showed any aggression towards strangers or other animals. The most she has ever done was bark(when someone was walking down my street at 4am and I had her out to do her business) Thats the type of behavior I would expect and one of the reasons I went with a Rottweiler.

Thanks Again

[LavenderRott]

I haven't had a puppy in a long time but what you describe sounds natural to me. Puppy out running in yard, having a great time when it see's a new playmate (you)! What fun! To play, attack and use those little choppers! And being so young that sometimes, she just gets carried away and forgets that she isn't supposed to bite on Daddy. I dare say that if she was the lay about type of puppy, we would be wondering if she were ill and wishing she would play more.

She may be a bit drivey so she may be a bit of a handful as she grows up. But it really sounds like she will be fine with those obedience classes and a dilligent Dad.