To give up or not to?

[Murrkie]

Hello
I posted a couple times already and will make a note that I am not sure if my puppy has any Rottweiler in her or not. You guys were very helpful with her howling in the crate when we first got her, and her thinking it was ok to put our skin in her mouth. She now knows that when we say no in a deeper voice that it means to stop (with one exception thus far). This exception is what I need help with.
For the past few days, when we take her outside to do her business, we would grab her by the collar to bring her back in the house. Sometimes she doesn't want to come back in. She would get scarry violent and make noises like we are hurting her. She would put her paws up on my arms scratching them and snapping like crazy. She bit me at home once to the point that it started bleeding after a minute or so, very little blood and the wound looked like a paper cut. She goes crazy like this when we go to put her in the crate before we go out or at night time; in fact it seems every time now.
I have used the crate as punishment when she wouldn't listen and she would stay in there for about 30mins; unless she was howling, then she had to settle down before comming out. I have put her in the crate when i couldn't take her with me, longest i had been gone through the day was about 3hours, no more than 4 tops.
We were going to give her (or maybe us) another chance and see if we can stop this somehow. I think that maybe i had been keeping her in the crate too long for her punishement. ?
Yesterday, we were out at my sister's place and she found something on the ground and started to eat it. I didnt know what it was, but it sounded hard on her teeth and i went to take it away, but she was eating it so fast. She growled and snapped at me but i moved my hand away before she could bite and she swallowed whatever it was. Later on, she found another thing and i was able to react faster to get it. She dropped it to bite me and altho it was a little hole, it started to bleed immediately. It was a chicken bone. I tied her up on a post under the deck and went in to clean my hand.
I didn't want to give up on her so easily before but also wonder even if i stop this behavior (throw a treat in the crate to get her in or always have better treats on hand to trade), what if something happens when she's a year old that she doesn't want to do and she bites one of my kids or even myself? She has shown me what she will do when she just "doesn't want to."
I wanted to provide her with a good home after she had been abandoned but don't want to be afraid like this for my family. She is approximately 14weeks.
What would you do or think i should do?
Thanks in advance

[dmoniz]

She is still very much a puppy and a lot of this is easily fixed with conistencey and fairness. A crate should *never* be used for punishment. Tha being said I do put Cain in his crate when he is getting really unruley with the biting and getting into things, but it is because I know he is getting tired and really needs a nap, he usually falls asleep immediately. I always have a yummy treat for him and tell him to kennel up. He runs in and gets the treat. If you always have something really yummy on you like chicken, hotdogs, cheese, steak, she will learn really quickly that it is in her best intrest to bring to you whatever she picks up for a trade. Instead of grabing her by her collar, snap a leash to it so if she protests she can't bite your hand only the leash. Again you can use the yummy treats to lure er back in the house. To make the crate a happier place you can try feeding her in there as well.

[LavenderRott]

I spent weeks with my pom pup walking around with those little bitty cat treats in my pockets.

[Murrkie]

Thanks for replying so quickly,dmoniz.
I understand that i can fix this behavior by not touching her collar to bring her in the house or putting her in the crate but what i am afraid of, is what might happen in the future, say a couple months from now or years even. What if someone goes to grab her collar not knowing or i grab it thinking all is well, she has her adult teeth and just doesn't feel like going where they or i had planned to move her to?
basically im wondering if i should wait until i need stitches from her bites and am even moreso attached to her, or prevent that by putting her to sleep now?

[samirot]

Definately don't give up. She's too young and still needs lots of training as well. If you're not training you should start, if you are training you should do more of it. i personnally clicker train, i think its an amazing tool, go to clickersolutions.com, if you read all the articles there, i promise you won't have any more problems. Just be patient.

For starter, you should find out what her absolute best treat is. Do this by holding a treat in one hand (like a piece of a hot dog) and another in another hand (like a piece of cheese), whichever one she goes for take the other one away and don't give it to her, then do the same with another treat. eventually you hit the jack pot, the treat she will do anything to get. Use that one for the leave it command.

[YngvarOfGonzzoEarl]

It sounds like she has learned if she throws a fit that she can get her own way. I wouldn’t punish her with the crate either, but I would never allow a dog to act out like a spoiled rotten little child. If the dog freaks when you grab her collar, don’t stop….. You are the pack leader, the boss. I would ignore her fit and take her in whether she liked it or not. Remember consistency, calm mind set, and lots of praise when she does what you want her to.

[moondog]

You are taking a giant leap from puppy behavior to euthanasia, don't you think? There is a road you have overlooked that will give you confidence in how to correctly direct her behavior, and will give her the lessons she needs to accept your instructions, and that is called Puppy Training Classes.

Sign her up for puppy classes - there are classes for a puppy her age. The problems you are having are easily turned around once you learn how to work with her, and that's what a good instructor will help you do.

When you are finished with puppy class, sign up for another, and another, and another until she's fully mature. Keep her in classes for 2-3 years.

[Murrkie]

im sorry, but im not sure i consider that puppy behavior. Ive been around puppies most of my life and never once did i see a puppy behave like that and it be ok.
Beef jerky is her motivator, she is very good at sit. We are working on down, stay and off.

[AngelBunny]

Originally Posted by Murrkie

...what i am afraid of, is what might happen in the future, say a couple months from now or years even. What if someone goes to grab her collar not knowing or i grab it thinking all is well, she has her adult teeth and just doesn't feel like going where they or i had planned to move her to?
basically im wondering if i should wait until i need stitches from her bites and am even moreso attached to her, or prevent that by putting her to sleep now?

Why would you euthanize her when you haven't even started training her? Her rude behavior has its roots in lack of training.

Obed classes are your answer. That, and more physical exercise so you wear our your puppy, mentally and physically.

Are you practicing NILIF?

[moondog]

Originally Posted by Murrkie

im sorry, but im not sure i consider that puppy behavior. Ive been around puppies most of my life and never once did i see a puppy behave like that and it be ok.
Beef jerky is her motivator, she is very good at sit. We are working on down, stay and off.

It IS puppy behavior. You need to learn how to work with it, and ALL puppies benefit from attending puppy class.

What you are not understanding is that sit, down, stay, and off is not enough. Crates should NEVER be used for punishment. What have you done to teach "Leave it" or "Trade"?

Puppies have needle teeth, and needle teeth draw blood. Until you begin to learn how to work with her in a positive way instead of viewing her as an adversary, expect her to object.

[Cherry Heart]

They consider rotties to have " puppy " behavior for at least 2 years, this could be the same for different large breeds even is it isn't a rottie. This is all puppy/testing behavior.

My teacher in class showed us out/give with a toy. Put toy in mouth, hold high value treat in front of their nose and right as they out the toy for the treat "out/give" command and "YEAHH!! Good GIRL!!" with the treat. This shows them that outing will get them something BETTER! a treat or your praise.

Also try baiting into the house with a treat and praise, hand feeding treats out of the hand while petting holding collar, and this should help get the message that these are good things. In house treats/praise, collar touched treat/praise. Don't give up just yet, this can be trained away with time.

Also on the crate we used as time out, but for US not her. When we got so frustrated we wanted to cry/scream we put on a happy face got a nice treat and gave command "Arwen! Box!" (our word for crate for her). She never got put in with a mad voice or anger. She learned that is was time for us all to cool off and take a nap or chew quietly on a toy while mommy pulled hair in the other room. She will happily run into the crate to get her treat and then lay down and relax.

[Lola B Marie]

We have all been around puppies and no this is not good puppy behavior however, since you are asking for help on a site where people are passionate about the well being of their dogs, let me share the most constructive criticism I ever received. My rottie is now 17 months old and was recently trained for the second time. The trainer who is from the police academy, came to evaluate Lola. She was very much out of control,biting, snapping, growling, rolling up lips and would not listen. As a puppy, she was trained and went to all her puppy classes. What I didn't realize was that I had a pup with a real aggressive side to her. She never really listened and was just a bad girl. It was a joke around here not to bother the dog while she ate, how quick could you pull your hand away. All possessions were hers and she would not give them up with out a fight. At the time the puppy trainer used rewards of food and toys. She was ok for a while until she tired of the treats. This is not a food motivated dog. She would not come in when called and would not listen. When I called the new trainer, I will admit, I was afraid of my dog. He spent 3hrs here doing an evaluation. He observed all her learned behaviors and how the family reacted to her. He finally said, You are a very loving dog mom, but you are an awful pack leader. This is not an alpha dog, she is very fearful because she has no one to lead her. She is fear aggressive and if you work hard with her you can retrain this girl and she will be a wonderful dog. Then he asked me the question I will ask you. How much do you love this dog? Will it be worth it to you to put in the time and energy every day to work with her? I said I was in for the long haul I loved her very much and I would do what it takes. He taught me how to be a pack leader. How to mimic behaviors in the wild. This comes with only love and praise rewards. There are no treats involved. By the time he left that day, I had a dog who did not fear me but, respected me. By the end of the first week, Lola relaxed and began to trust me completely. She waited for her sit command when the bell rang because she trusted I would take care of the intruder and let her know if it was safe. She no longer felt it was necessary to remove the screen and the curtains to see who was there. Her command release, said only once, allows me to remove anything in her mouth. When she is out on her run, the command down is used and she drops and waits for all the praise. The other night she was playing with a lg stuffed toy. She removed the squeeker from the toy and dropped it at my feet. This was a sign of complete respect for her pack leader. Translated to I killed this and you may eat it first.
I would need volumes to tell you everything I learned. All I can say is that the trainer was from Barkbusters. The cost is $600.00 for any amount of visits for the life time of the dog. Some on this site don't like Barkbusters, some do. All know is, this trainer, a police academy dog trainer, recognized her problem and knew exactly what was needed. A well trained dog will make or break the relationship. I know that mine was the worst case senario but, if you seek the proper training NOW, while you can still mold the pup's thinking, you will have a wonderful companion. Please give proper training a try.If you do, you won't be dreading the future with this dog, you will be embracing it. Barkbusters is a franchise but the training methods are consistent through out. Hope this helps.

[Cherry Heart]

Lola, you give some very good advice. I have read alot of books and you mention alot of what "The Dog Whisperer" says in his book "Ceasars Way". He talks about how alot of American dogs are treated like family members, instead of DOGS,and they need to be dogs first, then pack members who are treated like members, not put on a podium and treated like a leader. They need guidence and "Calm-Assertive" energy given from their pack leaders.

This dog can be helped, but it will take training and time. I wouldn't give up, I would read read read, and train train train. If you can't afford the professional trainers right now (I would start saving) alot can be done with the help of books from online, book stores, or even if you have a good local library. There are alot of recommended books mentioned on this site that can help you, along with the members here, we all care about you and your dog and hope things get better with time, it's a long road sometimes but worth the sight seeing at the end!

[gpadilla1071]

I had a Rottie that was euthanized. I still believe that it was my fault. I'm currently deployed in Iraq and left the dog with my family back home. When we adopted him he was 3 yrs old. When I left to come over here, he was with us for about 3 months. When I left the dog started to act up and bit my daughter (she was trying to take food out of his mouth). Anyway, I told my wife that he needed to be in Obed. trng. So she went to several trainers and dog behaivorist and all of them refuse to train him. He was a tough boy, but wouldn't hurt no one (at least before I left). Anyhow, my tried so hard to find him a trainer or someone to teach us how. We always had dogs, but never a Rottie. We study, we did home training, I used to take him running every night and walked him in the mornings. In my eyes we did what we could. I the end all of those people told us to return him because of his behaivoir. What happened?... He was put down. I feel guilty because I wasn't around long enough to get him on the right track. Anyway, I just wanted to vent my guilt a bit. I always recued dogs and my family and I believe in helping these furry friends. Never give up!! There is always room from improving these dogs lives.

[Miss Greta]

You basically have a brat, and she needs to learn what to do. All of these people have given you great advice. The only think I can think of is draging a leash. Get a cheap 6 ft cotton leash and keep it on her when she is not in her crate. When she goes to do something you don't want her to, you can step on the leash and redirect her. This prevents that grabbing at the collar that she doesn't do well with. As she gets more into her training, the collar issue may well go away. You can also attach the leash to your beltloop if you are busy doing something so she can never be more than 6 ft away from you (makes house breaking easy as they can never go and "hide" somewhere). And, of course, puppy proof and put stuff up so she doesn't get in it in the first place. Time outs in her crate should be limited to 10 minutes, no yelling when you put her in, just calmly take her leash and park her butt in there. No attention from anyone when she is in there.
I loudly applaud you for wanting to get this under control. I hope all goes well for you and your furkid.