scruff technique on pups??

[DJweiler]

I have enrolled my 4 month pup with a trainer who is VERY good (based on his extremely well behaved dogs and what I have heard from other people) and he also believes in using the scruff technique. Whenever he misbehaves I tell him a stern NO and if he doesn't stop I'm supposed to "grab him by the scruff of his neck until I hear a yelp". What I'm supposed to do after if he continues is pin him to the ground on his back so he's in a submissive position (I hold him down with light pressure, just enough so he can't get up) and when he calms down, I let go and walk away. My pup is very outgoing and friendly. I was just wondering what your opinion is on the scruff technique and if you think it will bring out aggression in my pup (which of course I don't want). Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

[Ilovemypuppy]

These are out-dated so called 'methods' of training and I would not use either on a puppy or any dog for that matter.

What are you teaching the pup? To fear you, that you are not trust worthy ???

You want your puppy to trust you and co-operate with you and you need to use positive motivational training. Using those rough tactics WILL teach your puppy that he needs to pit his strength against you.

Please find another trainer who uses positive motivation as a way to connect and train your puppy. I would not go to a trainer like the one you described.

[MonteRiehl]

Howdy, and welcome to the forums.
Scruffing, and other odd wackadoodle "alpha" techniques were originally championed by the Monks of New Skete. These ideas and techniques were based on their "60's era" cutting edge understanding of dog's behaviour in the wild, and some theories of alpha dominance.

However, this is the year 2006. The learned Monks of New Skete have now tried to get everyone to throw away their old books, and use modern techniques. Scruffing and alpha pins (which they originally developed and advocated) are (in their own words) based on incorrect understanding of dog behaviours.

Use google to search for "Monks of New Skete" It's worth the time.

[StephanieandToby]

I used some scruffing on Toby when he was very young...(maybe up to 16 weeks ?)at his trainer's recommendation. But he never suggested any kind of Alpha Roll... that was a dozen years ago....times have changed...and although I've seen it work, I also know we have to keep updated and there are better methods out there.

At the time I knew no better, and I don't think Toby's trainer did either.

[Anne]

I was also instructed to use the scruffing method on my pup years ago. I really wish I hadn't though. I wouldn't think of using that method today. We did no alpha pinning or rolling though.

Then I found a great trainer on this forum and we learnt more in the first 1/2 hour under his guidance than all the previous months I had spent training my pup with not much result. This trainer certainly didn't suggest any rolling or scruffing. It was not necessary and the scruffing/rolling method has well and truly had its day.

[poohbearsmom]

As has been stated, these techniques are a tad outdated.

It is much more productive to slap a collar and leash on a pup, and guide it to the proper behavior through a quick correction (a simple confident "no" or "leave it" will suffice, depending upon the infraction), redirection with a toy or yummy treat, and then by showing the pup an acceptable behavior (a sit perhaps), one can teach a pup what is unacceptable, and what is acceptable.

Young pups stay leashed when they're out and about in my home. This way, I am prepared to stop a pup as it is thinking about, or just beginning an off limits behavior, because I can actually reinforce what I'm attempting to communicate to the pup.

The scruff shake, if ever used, should be quick and the pup should be redirected immediately to a positive behavior which it knows, and can be successful at.

The alpha roll is never a good idea with a pup. This has the power to send a pup into complete panic (as this would be a position in the wild in which a pup would get disemboweled rather quickly), and does not build the kind of trust and respect it was once thought to build. A game of strength is easy when a pup is 8 weeks old.... if one chooses to use this technique, one should be alerted to the fact that it's not so easy to win a test of strength over a 100lb rottweiler, in fact, it's downright dangerous. I've known plenty of petite women who have wonderful control over their rather large male rottweilers because they use their brains rather than brawn when dealing with their dogs.

It's amazing to watch a pup figure things out with a little guidance from it's owner.

What type of behavior is your pup displaying that is warranting a scruff shake/alpha roll from you in class? What is this class geared for?
A beginner class is great for a 4month old pup, but please remember, he is only 4 months old - although he's gaining size, he is still very immature mentally. Most rottweilers are considered 'slow bloomers', so be careful about the amount of pressure you're putting on a young dog to perform strict obedience.

He is old enough for a proper correction with a flat collar, or a muzzle correction (for biting) but if he were my dog, I'd still be using LOTS of positive motivation and play for shaping behaviors. At this age, infractions warranting a good correction would be biting and/or mouthing humans, biting at the leash, and that's about it.

[DJweiler]

The only time I would be using the scruff technique was when he was biting at our clothes, biting his leash, or biting at furniture. Reading all your replies made me aware that there is a better method out there. I just have to find a trainer who uses positive reinforcement. Thanks.

[AngelBunny]

Originally Posted by DJweiler

The only time I would be using the scruff technique was when he was biting at our clothes, biting his leash, or biting at furniture.

Better to redirect his biting to something he can bite and chew, like a toy.