Heart Murmur

[RukusAndBlaze]

Hey everyone! I'm the proud mother of 2 beautiful dogs. I have my female, Rukus, a shepherd/rotty mix, who is 3 yrs old, and my newest addition, Blaze who is a pure breed rotty and he is 8 weeks old.
2 days after I got Blaze, Rukus bite him badly. He had to get stitches in his mouth and he has a fractured bone in his jaw. The vet advised me to put him down, saying he was going to have many complications like he wouldn't be able to eat/drink, infections, ect. I couldn't do it. I had to wait a couple of days to make sure that that would have been the right decision. I'm very glad I trusted my intuition because he is so much better, thank God.
I brought him to the vet the other day for a checkup on his healing, and she told me that he has a heart murmur. She said it is normal for large breed puppies to have these and they grow out of them, but his was a 2.5/3 on a scale of 6. The breeder never told me about this. I have an appointment for him to go and see the cardiologist in Feb. I guess I'm wondering if anyone has had experience with this before or any advice. I want to make sure I am doing anything I can for my baby.

[spidey]

Many puppies do have puppy murmurs which go away as they grow up. However, Rottweilers are prone to certain very serious heart problems which are often inherited - were both his parents' hearts checked?

I would be MUCH more concerned about your other dog attacking your puppy and harming it to this extent. I hope you are keeping them separated.

[sage138]

My pup is 12 weeks old and he has a heart murmur and the vet told me it was a puppy murmur and he should grow out of it by 6 months. Here is a website for you to look at. http://www.rottclub.ca/subarotic.html

[RukusAndBlaze]

Thank you for the replies. I had Rukus staying with my boyfriend for about 2 weeks, and I was visiting her during that time. I have since brought her home and she acts completely different to him now. She almost acts like a mother, being very affectionate. After she bite him, I put her in her cage and she was howling like I've never heard her do before. I'm assuming she realized what she had done and regreted it. I still take precaution with them however, never leaving them alone together and seperating them when they eat.
The vet did tell me that some puppies grow out of the heart murmurs, and I am praying that this will be the case, but she advised me that it is not likely with Blaze because of the extent of it.

[RukusAndBlaze]

The breeder told me that the both parents never had any heart conditions. Then again, he never told me about Blaze's which was clearly evident by the vet.

[brunie's mom]

Originally Posted by spidey

Many puppies do have puppy murmurs which go away as they grow up. However, Rottweilers are prone to certain very serious heart problems which are often inherited - were both his parents' hearts checked?

I would be MUCH more concerned about your other dog attacking your puppy and harming it to this extent. I hope you are keeping them separated.

I agree with spidey...I would be worried about having your female dog around the pup. Very unusual that a female would do so much damage to a young pup. You should have been very cautious introducing a new pup to the resident dog. Please watch your female and keep the pup crated or away from your female.

As far as heart murmurs..some do not go away. I have heard that if the pup does not have one at their first puppy check-up and then one is heard later on...that these ones do not go away. If they are still around at 12-16 weeks they are not going away.
Have you told your breeder about the murmur?

Gina

[Karlan]

I agree with Spidey... my formost concern is with the older dog who attacked your puppy. They should ALWAYS be supervised if together. Personally I would keep them seperated at all times. Has the older dog been socialized? What are you going to do to going forward to keep this from happening?
It is tragic, I feel for the puppy. What a terrible start.

[Anne]

I would be very concerned about the behaviour of your older dog and trust you will keep the puppy safe from her. It is unusual for older dogs to attack a young puppy so aggressively. What interaction has this older dog had with other dogs in the past?

I hope this poor little puppy recovers and that you will protect him by keeping him seperated from the older dog.

I have no experience with dogs with heart murmurs but I was upset to read that this little puppy had been attacked and felt the need to reply.

[RukusAndBlaze]

Thank you for the replies. I let the breeder know about whats going on with Blaze the other day and he has offered to pay for the costs, but my main concern is his health, and money may not be able to give me that. When Rukus attaked him, I put her in her cage so I could bring him to the emergency vet. When I put her in there, she howled like I have never heard her do before ever. I think she realized what she did and regreted it. I brought her to my boyfriends and had her there for 2 weeks while I took care of Blaze. I went and visited her frequently. I brought her home and she is completely different with him now. She is very affectionate with him. She has always been socialized with other dogs, both male and female, since I got her when she was 3 months old. However, I do not leave them alone ever. I seperate them when the eat and keep a close eye when they play. Rukus is the farthest thing from a violent dog. I think she got jealous because regardless of the other dogs that have been over to visit, she knows this one is here to stay. I'm very happy that she has accepted him now, but I'm very worried about his heart.

[Ann Felske-Jackman]

Are you in St. Catherine's Ontario? If so, there is a good cardiologist at the VEC in Toronto. Her name is Regan Williams and the clinic # is 416-920-2002. An echocardiogram will tell you whether the murmur is the type to worry about, or whether it is innocent. Best of luck.

[RottsNScotts]

It is my understanding that sub-aortic stenosis cannot be diagnosed until the pup is 16 weeks old.

[frontierrots]

No, They can be diagnosed as early as 8 weeks by dopplar echo done by a board certified cardiologist. The diagnosis of SAS is made not only on if there is a visual stricture in the aorta but by blood velocity. A velocity above 1.7 m/sec is NOW considered positive for SAS (formerly the barrier was 2.15m/sec)

Pups with murmers as babies should be checked by a cardiologist at 6 months old and a dopplar done at that time if the murmer is still present

I personally had the entire last litter listened to by a cardiologist at 8 weeks not trusting a practitioner to be able to hear any murmers present

[Echolover]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but a heart murmur graded at 2/3 by a veterinarian is likely an indication that your puppy has sub-aeortic stenosis. It is a common genetic deficiency in rottweiler puppies, as well as other large breeds.

My nine month old rottweiler was diagnosed at 12 weeks old by a Board Certified Cardiologist. Please understand, a cardiologist will generally grade a heart murmur at one level above that of a veterinarian. My puppy was graded at a 2/3 by his vet and at a 4/5 by the cardiologist. But please remember a heart murmur grade is not an indication of the severity of the disease.

Despite the initial grade of 4/5, Niko's condition is mild to moderate. In addition to his sub-aeortic stenosis he also had a thickening of the muscle around his heart. He was prescribed heart medication - Atenolol. At his last appointment, he was regraded at a 3/4 and the thickening of his muscle decreased. Although the cardiologist suspects that Niko will live a relatively normal life, we have to limit his exercise. Nothing strenuous. Especially, no sprinting as rottweilers are so famous for when playing fetch. Fetch for Niko is limited to a very small area.

Please do not be discouraged. The disease, if not terribly severe, can be maintained. With a good diet, controlled exercise and a lot of love and patience, the disease is definitely manageable.

Your cardiologist will give you a much better picture on the severity and prognosis of your puppy. Good Luck. Keep us posted.

[frontierrots]

often true but often the reverse is true as well. Practitioners cannot grade murmers accurately and often grade highbecause the dog was sniffing and they misread that as heart sounds

Until a dopplar is done there is no true picturebecause the blood velocity and structure have more to do with severity than simple sounds

My Darla was a grade 3 at 8 weeks and at the time of her deathh from the SAS at 14 months she was a 5, her grades were based upon her dopplar. She barely developed the classic arotic stricture but her velocity was high

Dogs can have normal looking hearts and yet still have SAS and be diagnosed by the velocity alone

That said this pup may stll outgrowmuch of the murmer but noone will know until/unless a dopplar is done and a follow up 6-12 months later

I have a good page on Darla's diet which helped her outlive her cardiologists life estimate http://www.angelfire.com/nh/shibas/darladiet.html

Heart issues (SAS) are very common in this breed and any dog diagnosed by a cardiologist as having SAS should submit a pedigree to the Rottweiler Health Foundations http://www.rottweilerhealth.org SAS research project to help eventuall find a genetic marker for this thing that kills so many of our breed

[BostonRott]

Your appointment with the cardiologist was definitely a wise move. I agree with Diane re: practitioner's inability to reliably grade murmurs.