Puppy Growling Over Raw Bones

[VANCOUVERISLANDROT]

After reading through these forums and seeing the benefits of BARF diets etc, my dh and I decided that we couldn't afford the raw diet (as much as we think it's great!) BUT would feed a high quality kibble and supplement with raw meaty bones, turkey necks etc, some raw veggies as treats etc.

Oscar is now 9-1/2 weeks old and my dh is now refusing to give him anymore raw bones. The problem is that he growls BIG TIME, shows his teeth and actually bit my dh when he tried removing the bone from him. When we give him any bones, treats, food etc we've been making a point of putting our hands in his bowl, his mouth, pulling away his bone. We're doing this to make sure he doesn't growl at anyone when he's eating. He NEVER GROWLS or even gets phased with any other types of smoked bones, food, treats, toys etc BUT give him a raw bone and it's Kujo time! We spent hours, days etc trying to correct this behaviour but it's just not improving so my dh is blaming it on the "raw meat, blood = vicious dog" thing and he doesn't want it to continue for obvious safety issues when he's bigger. He thinks the worst thing we could do is continue to give him raw bones/meat.

Are we best to just not give them to him since he's fine with all other types of food and smoked bones?? Or does anyone have a suggestion for curbing this behaviour??

Thanks!
Julie

[BostonRott]

This is called object guarding and needs to be addressed now. If you don't solve this now while he's small, you're going to have much larger problems when he's grown.

Here is a thread with some good advice: http://www.rottweiler.net/forums/behavior/3986-why-do-they-start-guarding-objects.html

Some general info: http://dogs.about.com/cs/behavioriss...urce_guard.htm

A good article: http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/RG.html

I would start with trading things of lesser value, and then work up to the bones. They tend to be VERY high value for most dogs. At any point, if the dog guards something from you again, I would follow Judi's advice and give the dog "what for" verbally, along with a stiff collar hold.....for a puppy of this age.

[VANCOUVERISLANDROT]

Originally Posted by BostonRott

This is called object guarding and needs to be addressed now. If you don't solve this now while he's small, you're going to have much larger problems when he's grown.

Here is a thread with some good advice: http://www.rottweiler.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3986

Some general info: http://dogs.about.com/cs/behavioriss...urce_guard.htm

A good article: http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/RG.html

I would start with trading things of lesser value, and then work up to the bones. They tend to be VERY high value for most dogs. At any point, if the dog guards something from you again, I would follow Judi's advice and give the dog "what for" verbally, along with a stiff collar hold.....for a puppy of this age.

I will definitely read through the links you gave me, thanks very much! However, we have already tried the verbal/ scruff, collar...you name it. It's only EVER with the raw meat. Even with his fav toys or the smoked bones he doesn't care so I'm not really concerned with aggression or anything. Hence why my dh figures it's just best not to give him the raw meat. He's had a Rottweiler before who was the biggest gentle giant and had the exact same response with raw bones. I'll read through those links and hopefully learn something.

Thanks,
Julie

[rottielover2004]

Thank god I never had that problem. What we did from the day he strutted in the door at 9 1/2 weeks was.....give him something he seemed he wanted bad. asked him to drop, showed a liver treat, when he dropped it, we gave him the treat, and we took the toy, the food or what ever else was around that he was chewing. Now at 9 months, I can open his crate, and take his raw bone without even a dirty look. He tried once when we first started giving the raw bone. It was addressed..... and never again. He knows now that mommy gives the bone, and takes away the bone.. But it comes back later with a promise, LOL

[BostonRott]

The other objects aren't high enough value to elicit the response. Just as we each have a different pain threshold, so do dogs have different thresholds for what htey'll guard. Ex. Banja will guard tennis balls and footballs from other dogs (not from us), but she gets more protective of bones around us (we worked on this). Vikka could care less who is around when she has anything, she guards nothing at all from us. Xcel guards only bones from other dogs, but not from us (and we never had to work on it with him).

There is a great book called "Mine!" by Donaldson that is about resource guarding (and is cheap), you may want to see if your library can get it for you, or order your own copy (http://www.dogwise.com). There is a correct way to diffuse resource guarding, and there are incorrect ways (which end up escalating the situation).

But you DEFINITELY want to get it under control now while the pup is still young/small. Besides, bones are great "toothbrushes" and it would be nice to be able to give them later in life for recreation/dental hygeine.

[rottielover2004]

"The other objects aren't high enough value to elicit the response".
I never said they were of the same value, I was just stating what we did to work our way up to the raw bone!

[2rotties2luv]

Originally Posted by VANCOUVERISLANDROT

When we give him any bones, treats, food etc we've been making a point of putting our hands in his bowl, his mouth, pulling away his bone. We're doing this to make sure he doesn't growl at anyone when he's eating.

I believe that doing this actually has the opposite effect, that it causes and/or encourages the development of food guarding behavior.

I believe that all animals and people should be allowed to consume their meals in peace, without being bothered, and without being worried that someone will take their food away. I have owned 3 rotties and a weimaraner. I have never disturbed any of them while eating, and I have never had a food guarding issue with any of them. When I put their food down, I go about my business in the kitchen, cooking, cleaning up, etc. and have never had a growl. I can ask them to move while eating if they're in my way, and they will oblige. They are not afraid that I will try to take their food or mess with it, so they have no need to guard it.

In your case, I would probably feed the pup in his crate for a while, since he will feel safer there. I would not disturb him until he is done eating and then I would let him out and then remove his dish. If at some point you want to begin to feed him outside of his crate, I would put his food bowl on the floor and occaisionally walk by and drop a tasty morsel in the bowl. Thus he will learn that you make the food better, NOT that you are about to snatch it away from him!

Also continue training the "out" or "drop it" with toys and smoked bones and teach him to trade these items for treats with much praise when he gives them up.

[BostonRott]

Originally Posted by 2rotties2luv

I believe that doing this actually has the opposite effect, that it causes and/or encourages the development of food guarding behavior.

I believe that all animals and people should be allowed to consume their meals in peace, without being bothered, and without being worried that someone will take their food away.

I heartily agree.....I missed that part of the post, sorry.

In your case, I would probably feed the pup in his crate for a while, since he will feel safer there. I would not disturb him until he is done eating and then I would let him out and then remove his dish. If at some point you want to begin to feed him outside of his crate, I would put his food bowl on the floor and occaisionally walk by and drop a tasty morsel in the bowl. Thus he will learn that you make the food better, NOT that you are about to snatch it away from him!

Couldn't agree more, though it didn't sound like he was having food bowl issues (luckily).....but yes, it may make him more guarded with a bone b/c you have established a pattern of messing with his food.

[2rotties2luv]

Gretchen, my understanding of the OP's problem was that it was with the raw bones and meat that were being given as part of a meal. Perhaps I misunderstood??

[BostonRott]

O. I was thinking it was recreational bones, and geared my answers that direction. I'm probably the one misunderstanding.

[VANCOUVERISLANDROT]

Originally Posted by 2rotties2luv

I believe that doing this actually has the opposite effect, that it causes and/or encourages the development of food guarding behavior.

I believe that all animals and people should be allowed to consume their meals in peace, without being bothered, and without being worried that someone will take their food away. I have owned 3 rotties and a weimaraner. I have never disturbed any of them while eating, and I have never had a food guarding issue with any of them. When I put their food down, I go about my business in the kitchen, cooking, cleaning up, etc. and have never had a growl. I can ask them to move while eating if they're in my way, and they will oblige. They are not afraid that I will try to take their food or mess with it, so they have no need to guard it.

In your case, I would probably feed the pup in his crate for a while, since he will feel safer there. I would not disturb him until he is done eating and then I would let him out and then remove his dish. If at some point you want to begin to feed him outside of his crate, I would put his food bowl on the floor and occaisionally walk by and drop a tasty morsel in the bowl. Thus he will learn that you make the food better, NOT that you are about to snatch it away from him!

Also continue training the "out" or "drop it" with toys and smoked bones and teach him to trade these items for treats with much praise when he gives them up.

As much as I appreciate you believe all animals should be able to eat in piece, I somewhat disagree. We don't poke & prod him or "snatch" by any means, we make it fun and somewhat like a game, he gets praised. We let him eat his dinner in piece but will once in awhile walk by and put our hands in the vicinity of his bowl...he could careless. I've had a dog in the past who was just left alone to eat but if you walked by or came close to their bowl, she'd growl and show teeth. I also have friend who own a 5 y/o Rotti and have the exact same growling/snapping problem with his food bowl. I don't want my 4 y/o nephew and/or my future kids to innocently walk up to our dog while he's eating and get bit or something because they just don't know. And I just don't think it's practical to feed an adult Rotti in his kennel. Hence why we want him to think nothing of us handling him or his food, toys etc.

Our ONLY problem has been with the raw bone.

As for feeding him in his kennel, not something I'd consider doing. His kennel is where he sleeps, has quiet time etc and I don't want it to be a feeding place. I don't know about your dogs but mine eats like he's at a trough! haha! He even snorts like a piglet...I'd be scrubbing the kennel constantly! He eats just great out of his bowls in the kitchen and shows absolutely zero aggression while eating.

Julie

[VANCOUVERISLANDROT]

Originally Posted by BostonRott

O. I was thinking it was recreational bones, and geared my answers that direction. I'm probably the one misunderstanding.

Noooo, he doesn't get his raw bones with his meals. He is given them as treats. No aggression during feeding etc or with other recreational bones...just the raw.

[Birdie'sMom]

Originally Posted by VANCOUVERISLANDROT

We let him eat his dinner in piece but will once in awhile walk by and put our hands in the vicinity of his bowl...he could careless. I've had a dog in the past who was just left alone to eat but if you walked by or came close to their bowl, she'd growl and show teeth. I also have friend who own a 5 y/o Rotti and have the exact same growling/snapping problem with his food bowl. I don't want my 4 y/o nephew and/or my future kids to innocently walk up to our dog while he's eating and get bit or something because they just don't know. And I just don't think it's practical to feed an adult Rotti in his kennel. Hence why we want him to think nothing of us handling him or his food, toys etc.

I think what they were trying to say (and what I have learned here and from my trainers) was that instead of putting your hands in he bowl, you should come over and drop a special treat in the bowl. This will make the puppy associate you being near his food with something positive, not with being annoyed while eating. This will give you the result you want. Also -they were saying instead of taking the bone - trade it for a treat. This also associates it with something positive and not with something being taken from them. You can work your way up to trading for the raw bone, but start with toys. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that everyone that has replied here wants to be able to go near their dog no matter what they have without getting growled or snapped at. It's just that there are the right ways to go about getting this behavior and ways that are just going to aggrevate the issue.

[BostonRott]

Out of curiousity, why are you so against feeding in a kennel? I feed the dogs in their crates for the first 6mos or so, to teach them that their crates are a good place. When young children are around, there are several options:

a) Make sure the kids are not near the dogs while the dogs are eating
b) Feed dogs in crates
c) Young children should NEVER be unsupervised near dogs.....both are simply too unpredicatble (no matter how well trained). It is the adult's responsibility to police the situation.

[VANCOUVERISLANDROT]

Originally Posted by BostonRott

Out of curiousity, why are you so against feeding in a kennel? I feed the dogs in their crates for the first 6mos or so, to teach them that their crates are a good place. When young children are around, there are several options:

a) Make sure the kids are not near the dogs while the dogs are eating
b) Feed dogs in crates
c) Young children should NEVER be unsupervised near dogs.....both are simply too unpredicatble (no matter how well trained). It is the adult's responsibility to police the situation.

I just don't really think it's practical really. I'd much prefer to put his food into his 1-piece bowl set on the kitchen floor. His crate is an open wire crate with bedding in it, it's in our bedroom and on our carpet...the mess?! Gross. If his crate were in the garage or on tile or something perhaps it would be a different story. I'm not slagging anyone who does it at all, I understand why some may chose that method etc. Oscar does like his crate already and actually will go in/out of it during the day for his little quiet times etc. on his own.

I don't want to HAVE to feed my dog in a seperate area of the home so that no one (including kids) are around them while they're eating. That's just so impractical and silly to me. I have enough sense that if this were an issue, I certainly wouldn't put kids in harms way but his eating isn't an issue. As for leaving kids unsupervised around the dog, that would never be an issue either. We don't leave our cat unsupervised with him, let alone kids. haha!

I appreciate everyone's opinion, hence why I asked for it BUT I it seems like the question I asked is going completely sideways. We do NOT have a feeding problem, putting him w/ his food in a kennel will not help our issue imo. He just gets aggressive when he has a raw bone as a treat.

Perhaps when he gets raw bones he goes into his crate?? Then it's his quiet time/raw bone time...no interuptions?? Is that an option?