Should I have dealt with this differently?

[Iluvmykaia]

I had an incident with my pup Kaia (5½ months) just recently that I would like some advice about. A gate seperates my neighbours back yard with mine and I was outside cleaning the yard, when the neighbours daughter asked if she could open the gate and have Kaia come play with her and her friend. I said yes because I was out in the yard also and could watch. I was thinking a great opportunity for socialization. All was going well until Kaia went in their garden and found some old cat food that they had chucked in there, so thinking it could make her sick I went to get her out of the garden. Well she growled and stiffened, I ignored this and continued to pull her away from the cat food, then she went me. I have puncture wounds up both forearms and bruising and got quite a fright. I then went inside and got a towel, threw this over her so she could not bite me again and put her in her crate. Thinking about this afterward I wonder if I should have dealt with this by enticing her out with a treat. But then I am torn between the fact that I have had previous dogs who have found food (chicken bones or other crap while out walking) and although they have resisted giving whatever it was up, I have been able to get it off them without being bit. Just to give some history as these questions always get asked…

Kaia has completed puppy school and is now in obedience training. She is not allowed on beds or the lounge and sleeps in her crate. I walk her daily practicing loose lead walking. I am training her to walk through door ways after me. I do not free feed her and she has to sit and wait until I say it is ok to eat her food.

I know some of you will think that I should not have not ignored the warning signals (stiffening and growling) but if I ignore this and let her get her own way aren’t I going to have a dog who thinks that shes the boss and can just act like that and have me back off?

[AngelBunny]

If I had been in your situation with my puppy clearly giving me signals, I would have left her to get a leash and some yummy treats. Doing so would have prevented you from being bitten by your dog--and seriously bitten, from what you describe. You don't say if your neighbor's daughter saw your dog attacking you--something else that could have been prevented by you getting a leash.

At 5-1/2 mo old, I doubt that you backing down once to go get a leash would have caused your young dog to forever think you're a pushover.

Kaia clearly has resource issues and now you know they're serious and will require lots of work on your part.

[Iluvmykaia]

Thanks for your reply AngelBunny. I guess its up to me to be smarter than her cause as she gets bigger shes certainly going to be stronger. Do you have any suggestions on how to work on resource issues?

[OnyxGold1]

I hate to say this but based upon your repeated posts about this puppy and her aggression towards you, my suspicion is that this puppy is simply not wired right.

I THINK that you posted previously about not having any qualified behaviorists near where you live?? is that correct??

If not I would definitely seek out the opinion of a qualified behaviorist who is very familiar and comfortable with large working breed dogs.

Further I would absolutely never be allowing this very reactive puppy anywhere near children. Unfortunately given her history of going after you what guarantee do you have that even with you watching from your yard that you could have the time to foresee or stop an attack on your neighbor's child.

If I further recall correctly you have posted that she is essentially backyard bred?? ie, there is no knowledgeable breeder to whom you can turn for an opinion on this puppy? or to whom you could possibly return puppy to for a duration for the breeder to assess her behavior??

If she is the result of a byb it could simply be that her parents' temperaments weren't knowledgeably assessed and she could just never be right despite training. If that is the case you may have a hard hard choice to make in the future.

Wishing you the best

Heather

[AngelBunny]

When I was bitten by a shelter dog I was evaluating who had with possession issues, I was bitten once. As I was reading your post, it concerned me that you were bitten multiple times. Multiple bites to protect a high value item are not the norm.

If OnyxGold1 is correct--that you've had issues with your puppy and if she's a BYB product--you should take her advice and have your puppy assessed by a qualified behaviorist.

[Iluvmykaia]

Yes Heather you are correct, I have posted previously about Kaias behaviours and yes she is from a byb (in my defence if I had known about bybs I never would have got a pup from one, it is only since this site that I am now aware). Based in the limited experience I have in dealing with difficult dogs I am trying to do the best I can. I practise NILF, I try not to set her up for any failures. I really have bonded with her and I cant rehome her because I know she has issues and it would just be unfair passing them on to someone else and even if I did find someone who would be firm with her and knew of her issues, how do I know she wont be beaten or used as a fighting dog? Also putting her to sleep seems a bit harsh for a pup that is still learning the way of our world. I guess I just keep thinking that training will help.

[AngelBunny]

Originally Posted by Iluvmykaia

...I have posted previously about Kaias behaviours and yes she is from a byb (in my defence if I had known about bybs I never would have got a pup from one, it is only since this site that I am now aware). Based in the limited experience I have in dealing with difficult dogs I am trying to do the best I can. I practise NILF, I try not to set her up for any failures. I really have bonded with her and I cant rehome her because I know she has issues...Also putting her to sleep seems a bit harsh for a pup that is still learning the way of our world. I guess I just keep thinking that training will help.

If a dog is not right mentally from birth--not wired properly from birth--there is no training in this world that will right or correct this defect. The dog may be managed, but the amount of work and vigilance necessary is extraordinary and, frankly, not worth the Trojan's effort. As has been noted in other discussions, living with a dog should be a pleasurable, rewarding experience. It should not be stressful and one that causes worry and concern.

And, no, you can't rehome her--especially now, after what she's done to you.

Take OnyxGold1's advice to heart and find a behaviorist or other qualified individual.

[kina]

What a horrible situation. I'd talk to my trainer about it if I were you and also get them to recommend a behaviourist.
I'm on a animal forum for kiwis, I've posted on there asking if anyone has any recommendations. I'll also ask my trainer if she knows of anyone qualified. I'll let you know if I come up with any names.
We always played the trade game with Kina as a pup, it felt like bribery and I always felt that he should just do what I say whether I had a treat or not. I stuck with it though and then recently (a month or so, he's 19months) he just started dropping things for me when I told him to, no need for treats or the promise of a treat. He changed the way he dropped stuff too, he used to drop it and then come looking for his treat, now he drops it and carry's on with something else (I still give treats though if they are handy!)
So stick with the trade game for now and then see what the behaviourist days.

[Iluvmykaia]

Thanks Kina, any help would be great.

[kina]

I haven't been able to come up with many names, and the names I do have are just people that have heard about the behaviourist....so no real recommendations. This best one sounded like Karen Dewit from Paws in the City - not a real behaviourist but plenty of experience. Karen Sader from Agrade Animals, and Paul Hutton - who I read his website and wouldn't go near with my dog!
Hopefully more people will come forward today with a name.
Don't go to Canine Solutions- I went there for about 8months and wouldn't recommend it.

[Iluvmykaia]

Thanks Kina, right back when I first got Kaia and we had the incident with the bone I had Karen McCarthy from Paws in the City come and assess Kaia. I was given her name from the SPCA. There are 2 Karens that work for Paws in the City and the other Karen (Dewit) took the puppy preschool classes that Kaia went to. I also had Jo from Canine Solutions come and asses her as well (I know you dont recommend them) and what I have found is although these people have tons of experience with dogs and are trainers no one is a qualified behaviourist. Another thing is their training styles are completely different and I am not sure which one is right for Kaia so I have taken bits and pieces from both. Very hard situation as I feel there is no real help out there, I wish we were a little closer to American friends as they seem to know there stuff. Anyway I will google Karen Sader and Paul Hutton. Thanks again.

[kina]

I agree, they market themselves as behaviorists but really aren't, that's why I was hoping to find you a recommendation from someone.
Jo watches too many Dog Whisperer shows and was actually scared of Kina when he was a pup, I remember one time we were doing off lead walking in a hall and we had to keep the pups attention on us and following us, she was walking around making distractions, she started clapping as we walked past and Kina turned around and looked at her, her face dropped and she took a step back, I couldn't beleive it, she was actually scared of him. She also gave me a prong collar to use when Kina was way to young, 6 months I think, and told me to leave it on him all the time and correct as needed!!
I haven't heard back from my trainer yet, hopefully she will know of someone.

[poohbearsmom]

Please listen to AB and Onyx... they know of what they speak.

Playing trading games is just fine and dandy for a puppy who has a fine temperament... it will get you no where with a puppy who is hardwired wrong.

Training and Behavior are two different animals.... I'm going to paraphrase a fellow trainer.

Behavior: You may know a man who never finished the 4th grade, but has gone on in his life to be just the nicest guy around. Take the shirt off his back, and is a genuine diamond in the rough, a real gentle soul. Good temperament.

Training: You may know a man who's grown up with a Silver Spoon in his mouth, went to the best prep schools, attended Ivy League U's and all... has a helluva a lot of good "training"... but that doesn't stop him from being the biggest jerk in the world.... Bad temperament.

Training can "mask" inherent temperament, but the temperament is still there.

To paraphrase a middle school math teacher who empathized with me because I was a goofy dweeb, "Beauty is only skin deep, ugly goes all the way to the bone."

Please get this young dog evaluated, given her reactions to you thus far, you need to make decisions with your eyes wide open.

[Iluvmykaia]

Oh poohbearsmom, I completely take their advice on board but I am struggling with finding someone to assess her, I have already had 2 people come and check her out to find that they are not qualified behaviourists but only trainers. I have googled and rang around trying to find someone who can truly assess her but keep coming to a dead end. I am really upset because I dont feel I am in a postion to make a call on ending the life of my girl without qualified advice. Both of these people who came and checked her out said she has bad manners and needs training.

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by Iluvmykaia

Oh poohbearsmom, I completely take their advice on board but I am struggling with finding someone to assess her, I have already had 2 people come and check her out to find that they are not qualified behaviourists but only trainers. I have googled and rang around trying to find someone who can truly assess her but keep coming to a dead end. I am really upset because I dont feel I am in a postion to make a call on ending the life of my girl without qualified advice. Both of these people who came and checked her out said she has bad manners and needs training.

Are there any working dog clubs in NZ? These can be terrific resources as SchH, PP, Ringsport, etc... they work their dogs while in drive, and understand aggression much better than your run of the mill dog trainer.

Mick may know some folks in NZ.