Should I have dealt with this differently?

[kina]

Try Googleing 'Dogsport NZ' that's what they call SchH here I think. I think there is someone in Hawkes Bay?
There is also a German Shepard club in Avalon, but I'm not sure what they do with there dogs. There is also the Central Rottweiler Club, I don't think they do much though, but I think the ladies name is Karen Winter?? and she is in Wainuiomata.

[kina]

I've just heard back from my trainer.

She recommends Jan Voss of Canine Acadamy. In fact she passed my email on to Jan and Jan's reply was that she could do a 1 on 1 consult/ or discuss with you the type of aggression and if you should deal with a Vet Behaviourist - of which the closest is Kevin Stafford at Massey Uni. Because, again, Jan is a highly qualified trainer, not a behaviourist.

Jan also says 'Assuming the scenario is within behavioural trainer's scope and if she is in Upper Hutt I think I would recommend Karen Sadler, Agrade animals, as a first call as she has success with this kind of case and is closer.'

For some reason I thought you were in Upper Hutt, I think you posted that somewhere. I think Jan is in Wellington, so I would go to which ever was closer and then they can refer you onto Kevin at Massy if need be.

Hope this helps, and good luck!

[jaramburo]

Okay, because you were bit while removing the dog away from the food does not mean you have a short circuit dog that is a product of a backyard breeder. Some pups are born with a higher genetic propensity for this behavior than others. Guarding food is normal in canines and it will develop more often than not, unless measures are taken to prevent it. So please do not feel like you have to put this dog to sleep.

Let me tell you a story about one of my boys named Beastie who died of cancer, he was with me from birth until his last breathe. At the age of six months he bit me on my neck. He was sitting down and had been playing rough with his brothers and I came over (Like I had done so many times in the past)and bent down to caress his chest. While I had my neck close to his face he bit my neck. The first thought that came to mind was that my dogs personality had changed and that my behavior with him had better change too.
In my mind I thought he was the same little one coming out of his mothers womb, but as they grow up their personality changes.

Anyways the next three months were serious months for him. No more playing, no more extra attention. I cut off all his liberties and when he got out of line he was yelled at, didn't care who was there. I became more vocally involved with him, to the point where when he saw me it was all about business. At the same time I was making sure I was spending time with him. Now I know people here would question this method, but it worked. By the time he was 9 months he showed me submission. Now I never disrespected him or mistreated him. My mistake was that I was giving him too much attention and not enough discipline. This extra attention developed in him a sense of being the Alpha.

My reason for this story is that I too could have said this dog is not wired right. Just because a dog bites does mean he should be put down especially at such a young age. Beastie truly became the most loyal friend I could have had. He lived eight years with me, protected my family, was so willing to be a part of the family. I never had another problem with him again.

You can save this dog. Be patient, get her trained professionally. Now when I say that, I don't mean Petco or Pet Supermarket puppy classes. Even onboard training if available.

[OnyxGold1]

Originally Posted by jaramburo

Okay, because you were bit while removing the dog away from the food does not mean you have a short circuit dog that is a product of a backyard breeder. Some pups are born with a higher genetic propensity for this behavior than others. Guarding food is normal in canines and it will develop more often than not, unless measures are taken to prevent it. So please do not feel like you have to put this dog to sleep.

Let me tell you a story about one of my boys named Beastie who died of cancer, he was with me from birth until his last breathe. At the age of six months he bit me on my neck. He was sitting down and had been playing rough with his brothers and I came over (Like I had done so many times in the past)and bent down to caress his chest. While I had my neck close to his face he bit my neck. The first thought that came to mind was that my dogs personality had changed and that my behavior with him had better change too.
In my mind I thought he was the same little one coming out of his mothers womb, but as they grow up their personality changes.

Anyways the next three months were serious months for him. No more playing, no more extra attention. I cut off all his liberties and when he got out of line he was yelled at, didn't care who was there. I became more vocally involved with him, to the point where when he saw me it was all about business. At the same time I was making sure I was spending time with him. Now I know people here would question this method, but it worked. By the time he was 9 months he showed me submission. Now I never disrespected him or mistreated him. My mistake was that I was giving him too much attention and not enough discipline. This extra attention developed in him a sense of being the Alpha.

My reason for this story is that I too could have said this dog is not wired right. Just because a dog bites does mean he should be put down especially at such a young age. Beastie truly became the most loyal friend I could have had. He lived eight years with me, protected my family, was so willing to be a part of the family. I never had another problem with him again.

You can save this dog. Be patient, get her trained professionally. Now when I say that, I don't mean Petco or Pet Supermarket puppy classes. Even onboard training if available.

I'm glad that the problem rectified itself for you Jaramburo, however in this particular puppy's case I think that the reason that many are questioning that this puppy is not wired right is after reading post after post about this puppy's aggressive behavior and having attacked her owner multiple times since she was a wee puppy. This is simply not a one time incident as unfortunately her owner has had problems with this puppy from basically the day she got her.

She certainly needs to be assessed by a qualified individual and hopefully her owner has found someone in her area by now. However that being said, if she isn't quite right, then the owner needs to make a decision in determining whether she has the ability to successfully manage a dog like this until the day she crosses the bridge; or whether the dog is simply too aggressive and that the most merciful thing would be to put her down. It is a tough tough decision, one I have unfortunately had to make in the past and I did cry many tears but did not regret the decision that I made. A dog should be a joy to own and when it becomes a burden and you start questioning when the next bite will occur rather than IF the next bite occurs; and you begin to question how serious and to whom the next bite will occur, a decision must be made.

Hopefully her owner has found an experienced behaviorist to assess Kaia and the root of her problem can be found.

[jaramburo]

I was under the impression this was an isolated incident. If this has happened several times since birth then I see how this could be a deepening problem. Yeah it could be a number of things, I wonder if the pup got its distemper vaccinations on time. Well at this point this is beyond her, she needs to seek professional help and exhaust all possible resources. Yeah I do agree in regards to the pup becoming a burden, living paranoid all the time is horrible.

With Beastie it was an isolated incident, or maybe I just caught it at the right time.

[Iluvmykaia]

UPDATE: So far I have not had Kaia assessed, I have just had surgery and am only just back at work. It is still my intention to do this, it will just have to wait a month or 2 until I can sort out my finances. I will keep you all posted.
Thanks.

[zorro13]

Originally Posted by Iluvmykaia

Kaia has completed puppy school and is now in obedience training. She is not allowed on beds or the lounge and sleeps in her crate. I walk her daily practicing loose lead walking. I am training her to walk through door ways after me. I do not free feed her and she has to sit and wait until I say it is ok to eat her food.

I did not see anything with regards to food training your dog. I read that you had dogs in the past you had no problem with, I have had those dogs as well, not to mention dogs I have had to work with, which is what you have.

There are a few things you should do. First, how is she around her food bowl? Comfortable or tense? Generally, dogs shouldn't be messed with around their bowl unless there is a problem. I like to add things to the bowl and then allow the dog to continue eating, letting the dog know that being in their vicinity is always a positive experience.

Then move on to treats, teach her to take a treat only with an 'ok' response. Put her in a sit, hold the treat in front of her, tell her to wait or any other word you want to use, then give her the 'ok' cue and let her have the treat, increasing the wait times as you go. Progress to then putting a treat and I would use very high value treats like meats and cheeses or anything that is high value to her with this training, put this treat on the floor, again make her wait, then give her the ok cue and always praise her. Progress again to putting the treat on the floor, make her wait, then walk away but still looking at her to enforce your wait time, take small steps at first so you are absolutely sure she is responding to the wait times. Eventually you will completely leave the area, out of her sight, and she should still be waiting for the ok cue from you. All of this takes time and should be worked on daily. Once she gets all of this and realizes she is not to take anything without her cue word, you should then drop food-again, high value food on the floor around her and she should wait, I would also do this outside. Your dog will still find things after training and should respond to a drop it command (make sure you train for drop it and leave it commands), if not, you will need to get another treat to get it away from the dog, then once you get a dog off the item, take the dog back and train with that item, here, you will not allow the dog to have that forbidden item and the dog should be corrected for not responding to the drop it command, by that, I use a verbal correction, but for others, putting on a prong or choke chain to also correct along with the verbal correction would sometimes be needed to let the dog know they should not go after the item yet again. Don't misunderstand that last part, the correction is only used for a dog who willfully disobeys a known command and who again goes after the item once you take her to it again.

In other areas, you should also be teaching her to drop it and leave it, not necessarily during these treat times, but with other things, toys, bones etc. (If she doesn't know this already) I have one dog who responds better to drop it and the other responds better to 'out'. My dogs have many toys in a box but I also have toys that are brought out for play times, those are good items to work on drop it and out to teach with.

As you already stated, you ignored her warning signs and got bit, which is never good, just remember to pick your battles, only those you can and will win. Grabbing another treat to get the dog to leave whatever at that time is not a setback, you just move on with your training again, noticing the 'hole' in training and go from there. Your dog had a 'great find' on her own, which she wasn't willing to let up, probably because she isn't trained.

[Iluvmykaia]

Thanks for your advice zorro13.

She is very relaxed around her food bowl and I think that is for 2 reasons...

1. I feed her kibble which I guess is not very high value to her.
2. I still feed her 3 times a day and I use her evening meal as a training session so there is lots of hand feeding.

I havent taught her to drop as such but she is learning "give". I use this when she has something she is not meant to have (a shoe etc), she doesnt always cooperate but I take the item anyway. Also when I am playing tug with her, I stop tugging and place both hands on the object and say give, she normally lets go.

A few weeks ago I had a issue with my freezer and all my meat defrosted so I cooked it all up and gave her this for a few meals. At the beginning of each of these meals she was hand fed and once the rest was put in her bowl she was petted. I did not touch this food once it was in her bowl cause I didnt want to cause her to think I was a threat. She was very good with this whole process.

I will start doing what you have suggested and see how we go.

Thanks

[RayofHope]

As a fellow Kiwi, and the owner of a female rotti who has had some 'naughty' behaviour, that had me worried sometimes, I will go against the grain a little here, and remind you she is only 5 months old. Don't give up on her yet. My hubby had an Akita Sheppard cross, he raised by hand (the breeder was going to kill it since it wasn't from a planned mating) Suki was stunning, but had issues. He finally bit my hubby's ex mother in law. He gave her warning, growled stiffened and she insisted on patting him. Hubby was told by ex wife to get rid of the dog. SPCA wouldn't take him, a friend took him for a short time, but then he took Suki to Paul Hutton, who say what you like about him, but he was the only one that got Suki trained and an owner who he was suited too. Suki needed to work, his instinct was to guard. He lived a long happy life with an owner he protected and was loyal to. If you are in deed not the owner for your pup, I am sure there will be an answer out there and on owner who can handle her.

I follow Caesers theories to a certain degree. Have you read any of his books, Jan Fennell is very good too, her training techniques are simple to follow and work.

Our Hope showed some unwanted signs early on and then came right, then they resurfaced around that stupid stage...8 - 10 months. Now she is nearly 12 months and getting far more focused and understanding acceptable from not.

I would love to know your vets opinion of your girl.. Our vet was never concerned with Hope, she did say correct her, and we did, but she said she knew Hope didn't have a bad bone in her body. Her behaviour at the vets..a most stressful time usually, is wonderful, happy, friendly, obedient.

Also you may have tried this, sorry if I missed reading it, but the SPCA assess behaviour of dogs surrendered to them, can you ask them to run her through their test, you could offer a donation for their help.

Good luck.

[Iluvmykaia]

Rayofhope sorry for the late reply, I was made redundant and it was my work email that was receiving notification of comments for my posts. This poses another problem for me, now it will be sometime before I will be able afford to have Kaia assesed by one of the people Kina has recommended, but good suggestion about the SPCA as a donation at this stage will be all I will be able to afford. Nevermind we will get there. Least I have plenty of time to spend with my son and Kaia :)

[LunasMom]

What about a veterinary behaviorist. Those should be listed with your countries equivelent of the american veterinary association.

Litening to all this it almost sounds to me like your pup doesn't respect you as the leader. If you're soft with her or permissive when you should be assertive then she may or may not do the work you're asking her. WHen you have a dog that will do obedience drills until a greater resource (ie The catfood) is presented and she reacts the way your dog did then she definately doesn't respect you as the leader. If she did then she would have eventually albeit begrudgingly left the food and come to you. I don't think it's that she's wired wrong nessarly so much as she doesn't respect her leader and for a gal of not even 6 months old to already have this tomultious relationship with you is NOT good. I'd be asking your vet for info on a certified applied animal behaviorest. If you don't take care of this now and aggressivly then either you or your dog are going to be dead by her turning age 1. Sorry to be so dramatic but this is a dangerous situation all around. I hope you find the help you need.

[LunasMom]

In addition to my other statement... if you wait a month or 2 to address this issue you might as well not bother at all because it'll already be out of hand (it's on the verge of out of hand now). This bite was a test to see what she could get away with and apparently now in her mind it's a lot to bite the hand taht feeds her. THIS NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED NOW or you will have more bites and the more confident she gets withher mouth learning she can intimidate you (and anyone else for that matter) is only going to end badly with her being put down and you being put in hospital because she had enough. You should have been working on the doorways thing from day 1. The Alpha ALWAYS goes thru the doors first. Now you have to UNDO alll the unintentional training you did and reprogram her thought processes.

Again this is a SERIOUS issue and you're acting as if "ohhh I'll just wait a month or 2 because of finances"

If that's how it is going to be (and sorry to sound mean but) you shoud start looking to rehome her now before this issue gets way out of control and she is completely
un-rehome-able. I would keep a lock on that gate that seperates you and your neighbor and I would definately NOT have a dog around that I couldn't trust 100 %.

[owczarek]

Originally Posted by kina

Karen Sader from Agrade Animals, and Paul Hutton - who I read his website and wouldn't go near with my dog!

Hi,
Firstly, I totally disagree with the above comment regarding Paul Hutton. Paul is one of the most experienced dog trainers/handlers in New Zealand and if you have a dog with aggression problems you'd be silly not to take the advantage of what's available on your door steps. Unlike the person who wrote the above post, I did meet Paul personally as I have a fear-aggressive dog that I recently re-homed and Paul was recommended to me by several people as a person to contact for help/advise. He is a very knowledgeable person, with great understading of canine behaviour and great handling skills, which shows not only in his ability to handle other people's dogs (including mine), but also in how obedient (and happy) his own dogs are (Paul Hutton - Canine Behaviour Centre)

There is also a lot of good, sound advice available on several web pages. The ones that I like are:
"Leer burg dog training" (Connect the first two words and google it, for some reason the program does not like it when I put the whole name of the person there and I also can't insert the link...): there are a number of free articles there on dog training/problems, good questions and answers forum and a great collection of educational videos that you can buy.

Adams Dog Training and Dog Behavior : You'd have to pay to join this site but again, it has a very good on-line resources and good support system of trainers that can help you out and answer questions related to any dog problems.

I personally think it would be crazy to give a treat to a dog that displays a dominant aggressive behaviour, and I am sure there are many people that share my views (or so I hope). It sounds like you need to establish a very clear rules/pack structure with your puppy and the above resources should help you to do so. I would highly recommend to contact Paul. I think "treat-only" approach might be fine with easy dogs that don't have any issues, although it’s like having kids: you need to praise them for good behaviour, but also tell them off for the bad one, otherwise you’d end up with a child with problems. With dogs, as soon as you move towards either spectrum of the extreme (e.g. dominance or fear) the “treat-only” approach simply won't work. Both myself and my husband have worked as vets in the past, and we both have seen our share of dogs euthanised because of uncontrollable/aggressive behaviour that could have been prevented with proper training. It's obviously your call, but if you have a Rottweiler puppy that is aggressive towards you at 5 months of age, in my view you'd be playing a Russian roulette if you tried to "cure" it with treats...
Good luck!

[kina]

Originally Posted by owczarek

Hi,
Firstly, I totally disagree with the above comment regarding Paul Hutton. Paul is one of the most experienced dog trainers/handlers in New Zealand and if you have a dog with aggression problems you'd be silly not to take the advantage of what's available on your door steps. Unlike the person who wrote the above post, I did meet Paul personally as I have a fear-aggressive dog that I recently re-homed and Paul was recommended to me by several people as a person to contact for help/advise. He is a very knowledgeable person, with great understading of canine behaviour and great handling skills, which shows not only in his ability to handle other people's dogs (including mine), but also in how obedient (and happy) his own dogs are (Paul Hutton - Canine Behaviour Centre)

I still wouldn't take my dog anywhere near him, and certainly not a dog that has issues already.

What sort of methods did Paul use for your fear aggressive dog? And you say that the 'treat only' approach doesn't work with the extreme ends of the spectrum (dominance and fear) would else would you suggest for Iluvmykaia to do to her 5 month old pup?

And why did you rehome your dog if Paul fixed all the issues?

Iluvmykaia, if you're still around, we'd all be grateful for an update.

[owczarek]

Hi, I have re-homed the dog, so she is now with me after being with somebody else. I have just started working with her, so will tell you more in a few weeks time.