New rottweiler owner in need of help!

[ODOG77]

Well my wife and daughter took Phoenix to the 1st puppy class- during the pass the puppy activity he was doing well untill he got to the last person right before my wife and he snapped at the women, then as my wife was taking Phoenix back she was trying to grab the leash by his leg and he snapped at her. At the end of class my wife told the trainer what he had done and the trainer was down by Phoenix, well Phoenix wanted her bracelet and the trainer moved him back so he wouldn't get her bracelet and he snapped at her. Now I am not sure if maybe he just got too much stimulation- there are 10 other dogs in the class so about 25 people. Before class though we took him to my fathers- he had about 10pp there and he also has 2 dogs and horses. Wasnt sure if that was another reason why he snapped- again too much stimulation??? I really am not sure if we can keep going this way. I really think that we should have gotten a more of a family dog. He does seem like he would be a great dog, for someone experienced with rotties. He has a very sweet side but right now we cannot trust him entirely. Any input would be great. Thanks.

[kdogspa]

Any Breed of Pup can be overwhelming for most folks. Our attention spans are short as well, most don't recall those tough few weeks and even longer months in PUPPY STAGE. Afterall, we don't want them to remain puppy, we want them to hurry up and grow up and be just like the rest of our dogs from the Past and the Present.

Once they are young adults were fast to press onward, hiking, swimming, tracking, agility and more, constanly expecting them to keep up, jump up into the truck, run laps with us on the road, take sharper turns on the Agility Course, make faster times in Flyball and everything else we expect of them. That's Human Nature.

Then as the years go by, they fall behind, their times are slower, Ribbons are fewer, they don't jump up into the truck everytime, and sometimes, they sleep longer, and don't always hear us. That can be annoying for some folks. That's Human Nature.

Were shocked when they die. Try desperatly to remember their cute puppy ways, look over pictures with fondness, and share stories with everyone and anyone that will stand still long enough. We look for answers, wonder what could have gone wrong, what may be done differently with the next dog that we get. That's Human Nature.

I have an idea of somethings that can change. How about the ability to use Energy instead of Food, Corrections, Tools, Voice. Positive Energy will Enhance a relationship with a dog. Any Breed will respond to Energy.

Taking the dog out for a proper Walk. Dog walks next to or behind you, never in front of Human. 45 min 2x a day. And it's Free.
Dogs want to be Primal with their Pack Leader. The most Primal way to Naturally Establish Leadership with a dog, is to WALK them.
No Food needed, No toys, just a Leash.
Once you have completed your Walk, then you can show Affection, Food.

Exerscise, Discipline, Affection.

I have been doing this with my newest Rott member since puppyhood . She's 3 1/2yrs old, and a very well behaved dog. She is the Perfect Ambassador for the Breed. Welcomes everyone into my Salon, with a Calm Submissive Nature. I have taught her these simple methods and over the years I have noticed a better foundation that has been built between us, she looks to me for Leadership, and knows I would never put her in harms way. My Energy is Calm and Assertive 24 /7 and my Rottweiler is Calm Submissive 24/7.

That's the Cesar Millan Way. :)

Love and Light, Kimberleigh

[Robenk]

I've been RDN surfing for quite awhile tonight (yep, another addict!) and after reading this post, I had to reply! Odog77, please don't give up on your puppy just yet!! KEEP READING and learn from everywhere you can! Having a rottie puppy is like having another baby--you're having the 2nd child, but it doesn't keep you from reading etc EVERYTHING about newborns again! I'm in the same spot, with older kids & an now 8 mo rescue, but still working on trusting Carley. We have worked with her A LOT are in our 2nd set of obed classes and I've watched nearly every Cesar Milan "Dog Whisperer" & "It's Me or the Dog" episode with Victoria that I could. We're finally showing progress and I'm feeling like she'll be a good dog once we make it through the puppy stage!!! Rotties are SMART and LOVE to test you...you just have show them who the alpha's are in the house by using patience & love & keeping them EXCERCISED (total agreement here Kimberleigh!!!) We purchased a treadmill just to work off some of Carley's craziness before a walk or training!!!

As for your current situation/question, I do think pups get overstimulated, just like children! Maybe by taking your pup somewhere prior to class, the pup was too stimulated to relax & learn. We put Carley on the treadmill for about 8 minutes or so prior to leaving for class OR we walk her for awhile & then get there EARLY so she can calm down. (She's a really sensitive girl who was never socialized prior to us getting her.) Maybe just excercise your puppy right before class, and then home for a meal & lovin' & bedtime would work...

BUT, If you feel after all of this, that your family ABSOLUTELY CANNOT give your pup the training & attention & patience, please do find a GOOD ROTTIE RESCUE (please NOT the SPCA!!) to surrender them to....BUT, I REALLY HOPE YOU DON'T!! You're here on RDN, which shows you really do care & want to learn & keep your pup....we're here to support & offer help....I've learned A TON from RDN and this isn't my first rottie!!! Keep up hope!!!

[zorro13]

Originally Posted by ODOG77

Well my wife and daughter took Phoenix to the 1st puppy class- during the pass the puppy activity he was doing well untill he got to the last person right before my wife and he snapped at the women, then as my wife was taking Phoenix back she was trying to grab the leash by his leg and he snapped at her. At the end of class my wife told the trainer what he had done and the trainer was down by Phoenix, well Phoenix wanted her bracelet and the trainer moved him back so he wouldn't get her bracelet and he snapped at her. Now I am not sure if maybe he just got too much stimulation- there are 10 other dogs in the class so about 25 people. Before class though we took him to my fathers- he had about 10pp there and he also has 2 dogs and horses. Wasnt sure if that was another reason why he snapped- again too much stimulation??? I really am not sure if we can keep going this way. I really think that we should have gotten a more of a family dog. He does seem like he would be a great dog, for someone experienced with rotties. He has a very sweet side but right now we cannot trust him entirely. Any input would be great. Thanks.

I have a question about the snapping. Before the snap happens, what is the mood of the pup? Frustrated/bored/calm demeanor/already in a frenzied/play drive state?

Also, I have only done AKC obedience and some schutzhund work in the past, so I am not familiar with trainers whose activities include 'pass the puppy'. What kind of training program is this? Petsmart/local yoohoo trainer/akc obedience?

Keep in mind some things here: boredom is a big thing with this breed, while some pups can be more laid back, some are quite driven, QUITE DRIVEN. The key to the 'quite driven' group is to stimulate the heck out of that little mind!

Also, it would be very helpful if you can type out what your puppy does in a typical day, to include, from the time pup wakes up to bedtime.

[brunie's mom]

Originally Posted by zorro13

I have a question about the snapping. Before the snap happens, what is the mood of the pup? Frustrated/bored/calm demeanor/already in a frenzied/play drive state?

Also, I have only done AKC obedience and some schutzhund work in the past, so I am not familiar with trainers whose activities include 'pass the puppy'. What kind of training program is this? Petsmart/local yoohoo trainer/akc obedience?

Keep in mind some things here: boredom is a big thing with this breed, while some pups can be more laid back, some are quite driven, QUITE DRIVEN. The key to the 'quite driven' group is to stimulate the heck out of that little mind!

Also, it would be very helpful if you can type out what your puppy does in a typical day, to include, from the time pup wakes up to bedtime.

" Pass the puppy" is often done in Puppy Kindergarten classes....to teach puppies that they can be comfortable with other people, besides their owners.

I have a feeling that this puppy was WAY overstimulated and had had enough, and was snapping just to get away. Most puppy classes are too long if they are an hour long. Some are just shorter and then have 15-20 minutes of play time at the end.
10 dogs and 25 people in the class sounds like a very busy situation. How many helpers were there in the class besides the instructor?

I must say just from reading the thread...this puppy was probably not matched right to this family. This family needed a laid back, easy going pup...and got a dominant, strong minded one. I worry because the OP has such young children...and he may be too much pup for this home.

Have you talked to the breeder? Why was this pup chosen for you?

Gina

[ODOG77]

Thank you all for your input. We had the trainer over last night and she gave us several ways to try and modify his behavior. She told us that if in the back of our heads we just were not sure to keep the dog to give her ideas a try for a certain time frame, 4 weeks or so and see if there was enough change to meet our demands. She said unfortunately because he is exhibiting this behavior so young it might just be genetics, and that while we may be able to get him up to 90% of changed behavior it may not ever reach 100%. She said that if we did not decide to keep him or even if we did she would stand behind our decision. She asked questions about the breeder, such as if we were able to see the mom and dad- we were not able to see the dad(he was off premises) and the mom we saw in her back yard behind a fence. All she really did was bark. This was the first time that we ever went to a breeder to purchase a dog and really did not know that we should have been able to meet the mom face to face. Of course when we asked the breeder about the temperments of the mom and dad- they said that they are great! We did call the breeder to ask if they would take Phoenix back if we decided that we could not keep him- they said that breeders do not take their dogs back but they said that their brother would take the dog but would not be able to give us any money for him. Our trainer said that, that is not true that most breeders will take their dogs back. So I think that maybe this breeder should not be breeding, they do not care what kind of product they are making. Anyways at the end of our session our trainer said that she would be more than willing to speak with the breeder to let them know about how Phoenix is acting if we wanted her too. She also told us that he IS acting in an AGGRESSIVE way when he goes to bite us. She had a first hand response with that when Phoenix tried to bite her. My wife and I decided to not keep Phoenix- while he has many redeeming qualities and could be a great dog we just can not trust him around our children. If we did not have kids, we would be more then willing to keep him and work with him. We feel really bad because we really like this dog, but in our hearts we really do not think that we could ever be comfortable leaving him in a room with our kids or even with visitors. My wife was in tears because we have to make this decision but we both know that it is the right decision. Now we just have to find a good home for him.
And just to answer a few questions that everyone had:
The mood that Phoenix is in when he snaps: it varys, sometimes he is laying on the floor looking at you and if you go to pet him he growls and then snaps at you. Or like in the class he could be trying to get something like your bracelet and all you do is move your arm so that he does not get it and he snaps. So there is no certain mood that he is in when he snaps.
Brunie's Mom is correct with the pass the puppy activity, it is like a puppy kindergarten class. Our trainer does reward based training methods, she is NADOI Certified.
There were two other helpers in this class besides the trainer.

We really do hate to give up on our puppy- but we do feel we tried every way we knew how to without putting our children in harms way. Although he is not putting our children in immediate danger we do not want it to come to that. As of right now we have to keep a constant eye on where the dog is at all times and our kids- which I know you have to do that with all puppies, but at least I wouldn't have to worry about my daughter saying look Phoenix looks like he is in a good mood I am going to go and pet him and then have her get bit by him. I just can not have that.

Thanks for everyones input, and please if anyone have any other questions or if I missed your question please let me know.

[Jaidann]

Originally Posted by ODOG77

We did call the breeder to ask if they would take Phoenix back if we decided that we could not keep him- they said that breeders do not take their dogs back but they said that their brother would take the dog but would not be able to give us any money for him.

There's your problem, unfortunately. Sounds like you bought from a BYB who doesn't guarantee their pups. If you decided to rehome your pup and try again, please research the breeders fully. It will save you a LOT of heartache and money.

Please don't take this as a slam from me. I'm not into that. Just trying to give you advice so you have a positive experience.

[Robenk]

I am so sorry to hear what happened!!! I completely agree with you in how difficult it would be to work so much with this pup & really young kids. I wouldn't have taken a chance with Carley had my children been really young. I feel badly for you but maybe you can find a way to either:

a) get the SOB "breeder" to take the pup back with a refund.
You could check into local ordinances...Here in Fresno there's a law against breeding without a permit and there are HUGE fines--maybe you could use something similar as leverage??? Maybe even contact your local SPCA about them, maybe there's something about them they've been watching...just some ideas
OR
b) You could do your best to find a solid, experienced rottie home for your new pup. I know I paid the rescue $250 for my Carley, and that was to pay for spay, shots, etc. I would definitely pay something to you for a puppy that perhaps I could handle where you could not. Sounds like your trainer maybe could help??

My thoughts are with you! Keep reading RDN and learn more about what to look for in a breeder & pup. Even if you decide a rottie is NOT for you, you'll learn what you should look for in ANY breed....

[Barrie]

I really am sorry it's not working out. I know how difficult a decision this must be, but I also understand you must put your family's welfare first and foremost.

It could have been a matter of timing as well. I know when my kids were that young I was not in any mind frame to take on the upbringing of a large breed, hence we ended up with a Bichon. But like others have advised, it is best to inform yourself with proper purchasing practises for ANY breed.

Always take the positive of any situation, be it a life lesson, or even the new found knowledge this experience has brought you. And see if you can get involved in rehoming Phoenix into an experienced/loving home environment; such undertaking might make the heartache a bit less intense.

All the best to you, and know we are all behind you in whatever decision you make for your family.

[Nishasmom]

Originally Posted by hill0523

If you go to move the dog off the bed and it growls, grumbles or whatever, are you supposed to say good dog? ignore it? A firm command saying it is not acceptable has been extremely effective. Treats and positive reinforcement are essential.

I believe that what you are doing is teaching your dog not to growl. By doing this you are removing his "warning" to you that he is upset. In the long run he may be one of those dogs who "bites without warning", because you trained him not to warn.

The goal is to train your dog not to be upset when unpleasant things happen.

ODOG77, IMO if you do not think you can handle this dog...dont. He is so young now, a rescue will be able to find him a good home with an experienced owner. I agree with Brunie's Mom...your family should have gotten a laid back pup, not a wild child that tests every boundry .

[Rkinken]

dont let him go. i kno how tough it can be to have a puppy in a house that has put you to your wits end. if u just keep working with your puppy and doing everything this board says i know this puppy will turn out how you want him too. when i got my zeus he was a handful for both me an my wife. we have a 3 yr old daughter as well. with another rotty mix xena. you can do it. i know it is tough i know that. we were both ready to give him up but my dream of having a rott was the huge drive for me to keep him.

read read read read. an reread reread everything. go get lots of toys for him to play with. walk him. do everything possible that you think u need to do and do more. now granted not everyone is cappable of owning a rott but willing to change to meet his needs plays a huge role in how he comes out. dont let him get away with anything tho. do your best to let him know who is in charge.

[ODOG77]

We would love to keep Phoenix but again it boils down to the safety of my children and friends. I really think that this dog will not be what we want him to be which is a good family dog- one that likes kids mostly. My poor daughter just wanted a dog she could play with and we are constantly telling her not to touch him. She is never disrespectful to the dog- we do teach our kids that. I think that if maybe my kids were older we could at least keep him until he was older to see how all the training turned out but with a 1 year old and a 5 year old we cannot take the chance that one of them will get bitten severly. We do want to find a great home for Phoenix- My wife would love one that we could keep contact with just to see how Phoenix does and how he turns out. We will not take him to the SPCA, or just give him to anybody that wants him. Like I said we really want him to be taken good care of because he is a good dog (for the right person or couple) We could not in good conscience give him to anybody that has kids.

[jelly8bean]

I am sorry it is not working, but glad you are making this decision while there is a good chance your puppy will be able to be placed (still young). While I agree a Rottie rescue would be best, the SPCA does make every effort to place any dog that is adoptable and to work to make them more adoptable in my area. Including alot of Behavior modification. It helps to have a specialized breed rescue to lighten the load for the SPCA, but they are not the bad guys so don't write them off.

[Robenk]

Originally Posted by jelly8bean

I am sorry it is not working, but glad you are making this decision while there is a good chance your puppy will be able to be placed (still young). While I agree a Rottie rescue would be best, the SPCA does make every effort to place any dog that is adoptable and to work to make them more adoptable in my area. Including alot of Behavior modification. It helps to have a specialized breed rescue to lighten the load for the SPCA, but they are not the bad guys so don't write them off.

I agree with your posting for the most part, however not all SPCA's have the $$ or manpower to do like you see on "Animal Precinct" on tv. Ours does an OK job of doing the basics, however they do not have anyone to do behavior mod or even truly assess the animal. Their health is not thoroughly checked until the animal is adopted (I found out the hard way, you'll have to look for my posts re Bella) They are so overwhelmed, most often kittens are euthanized the day they're brought in!! I don't want to "slam" the SPCA because I DO believe in what they do, however in many areas the resources are just not there.

I also don't want to scare the OP, but I'm glad they'll at least make an honest effort to find a new hope and NOT just drop them off at the shelter!!! Rottie puppies are NOT always received fondly in certain areas of the country (just as pit bulls are not even put up for adoption in some areas-PTS on the spot (did I read one place was in OH??)

Good luck OP, and other ideas for placement: dog trainers/organizat, dog clubs, no kill shelters (last resort!), breeder rescue, a GOOD COE breeder may have an idea?!, a veterinarian (most of my friends have gotten their pets through their own vets!!), and maybe even a WELL SCREENED, REFERENCE CHECKED Craigslist responder?? Just some ideas that I would possibly try if in your shoes....AND probably make sure that someone that has TONS of at least working dog exp, preferably rottie and maybe no small kids?....

[jelly8bean]

Things are not this way with the SPCA here.. How horrible for them, It must be location specific. The community here is very supportive and the SPCA has a behaviorist on staff and more in training, etc. Your post is very damming for your local group and I'm really glad I don't live there.. although concerned citizens do make a big difference.