At wit's end with the biting

[supernurse]

Hi all. I've been coming to this forum since before we got our Rottie pup and have found the info here invaluable! I have searched through the threads multiple times and have found much wisdom, however since we all know all dogs are different, I want to post my situation.
Background: We got our Rottie pup at 7 weeks old from a breeder in MO. My fiance picked him up and brought him home and I started working with him immediately. The pup's name is Ruger and he is now 11 1/2 weeks old. He has been quite mouthy from the start. He chews on EVERYTHING, so he has a plethora of dog toys that we trade for objects that he shouldn't chew on. He's gotten better about leaving stuff alone when we tell him "no", but my issue is his nipping at us. Problems: He will sit and look at me as I pet him, then, something changes and he starts to mouth at my hand, wrist, sleeve, whatever is closest. Sometimes I tell him "no" and try to ignore him, but the problem is almost like defiance. He'll curl his lip up and continue to snap at me. He also will growl and snarl. Most times he jumps at me! At this point I put him in time out in his crate (he is pretty good about being in his crate nowadays. He sleeps there at night and doesn't whine at all anymore.) Every once in awhile he nips at our pant legs ( I have a 12 year old, 9 year old twins and a 2 year old). He does this to the older children also but seems to show some restraint around the 2 year old. Sometimes when I go to correct him he snarls and growls and has even tried to snap at me-not playing- he turns and SNAPS! Tonight I had him at obedience class and while we were walking around the circle he intermittently tried to bite my leg. I jerked on the leash as a correction, but sometimes I had to do it 2 or more times. Then once he got ahold of my pants and growled and wouldn't let go. At one point in class the trainer came over ( he has been training dogs for 40 years) and he told me I need to get him under control or we will have a problem (duh!) and he smacked him on the mouth. He told me to smack him hard enough that the dog's teeth click together. Now I have been preaching at my fiance that we don't hit the dog, but obviously there is something I was doing before that has not been working because it seems that Ruger just keeps behaving badly. I'm terrified that this behavior will continue and I don't know what to do. I had a Rottie pup about 10 years ago and I don't remember him ever being like this! (I had to get rid of him because of my landlord's homeowner's insurance. He was about 2 yrs at the time.) Ruger is a big boy now- I know, he's only 12 weeks but he is STRONG and his teeth are sharp! I so much want to do everything right, but there is so much conflicting info out there I don't know what to do. I watch a lot of dog whisperer, but I tell you, it's so hard to emanate "calm assertive energy" when you have tiny sharp teegh connecting with your skin! I end up with "Pi@@ed off that hurts!!" energy. I try to practice NILF. He has to sit before I feed him and look at me, not the food before I put the bowl down. I take him for purposeful walks and make him heel and also practice our training on the way. I only give him attention/affection when he has done something good and is calm. Nobody babies him. Shoot! the kids are about afraid to pet him because he nips at them ALL THE TIME (except the little one). Ruger had been doing good in his classes up until tonight. He barely paid attention to the other dogs, he walked with the leash slack right at my left side, he even sat and stayed very well- I was so proud! Now after tonight his behavior is making me want to make a stiff drink! Sorry this is so long, but please, I need some reassurance and some good advice! Has anyone had their Rottie pup behave like this but still grow into a good adult dog? I would love to hear success stories and how they came about. Thanks so much.

[TrinaJ]

I would DEFINATELY NOT smack your puppy like your trainer suggested or did! My God, how dare He smack your puppy, I'd have smacked him in the face if he'd done that to Jett . Your hand is something your pat your dog with and give him hand signals with, you dont want him to see your hand as something that hurts him. That's just wrong on sooooo many levels. Your dog will never trust you if you smack it, not will it obey you, your dog will run from you. Smacking can also backfire by making the dog even more aggressive, and in fact it does not teach the dog what it should do instead of biting or mouthing (yes i know those baby teeth really hurt)

Keep going with NILF your boy will definately benefit and so will you.

Use your voice when correcting him, have a toy on hand and redirect his biting/mouthing to the toy. Dogs are very intelligent animals he will soon learn that biting and mouthing is not acceptable. I have had 1 whole week of no mouthing from Jett (she is now 6 months old). It does take time and persistence but please please do not hit your dog like your trainer suggested.

When he goes to bite or mouth tell him firmly NO. Use the same tone of voice everytime. aA soon as your dog does the right thing, pet him and say "good boy" he will respond to positive reinforcement. You have to be quick with the praise so that he will be able to associate what is going on.

I am not sure about using the crate as a Time Out as such, as you want your dog to like the crate and not see it as punishment....perhaps if your really have to put him in time out, toss a bone in there with him so he has something else to think about.

Good luck, its an awful stage of puppyhood but it is one that MANY of us have gone though/are going through.

Trina

[Anne]

Originally Posted by TrinaJ

I would DEFINATELY NOT smack your puppy like your trainer suggested or did! My God, how dare He smack your puppy, I'd have smacked him in the face if he'd done that to Jett . Your hand is something your pat your dog with and give him hand signals with, you dont want him to see your hand as something that hurts him. That's just wrong on sooooo many levels. Your dog will never trust you if you smack it, not will it obey you, your dog will run from you. Smacking can also backfire by making the dog even more aggressive, and in fact it does not teach the dog what it should do instead of biting or mouthing (yes i know those baby teeth really hurt)

Keep going with NILF your boy will definately benefit and so will you.

I am not sure about using the crate as a Time Out as such, as you want your dog to like the crate and not see it as punishment....perhaps if your really have to put him in time out, toss a bone in there with him so he has something else to think about.
Trina

Amen to that Trina Any trainer who smacked my puppy had better be prepared for a good smack delivered by yours truly. I would not tolerate any person smacking my puppy.

I suggest finding a trainer who knows what they are doing. He is going about things the wrong way in this area and probably in other areas as well. If he's been training dogs for 40 years he's clearly 40 years behind the times. Training has evolved and this guy has been left way behind.

Supernurse would you mind using paragraphs in your posts please. It's very hard to read a long post without paragraphs.

If it's any consolation my dog as a pup was a total land shark. She was really terrible for nipping. I did use the crate for time outs but not as punishment for the puppy...to give me a break from sharp teeth before I lost patience with her. She's never given me cause to lose patience but it was a close call a few times.

If I were you I would find a trainer who uses positive methods and stay well away from any person who calls themselves a trainer and who thinks hitting a puppy plays any part in training.

[4zenuff]

I have a female pup that will be 16 weeks tomorrow. She is/was just like your pup, but things are getting a lot better.

I told her NO when she would mouth and would hand her a toy. This worked most of the time. I finally started noticing a change last week. This week I noticed that she becomes mouthy when she needs to play, walk and get rid of energy. So when she becomes mouthy, I first tell her NO and distract her. Then I walk her or let her play outside with my other dog. Usually walking does the trick.

Your pup is still very young and it's going to take time, but it WILL come! My other dog was extremely mouthy. He didn't growl or anything, but it took him months to stop!!!

[Nelsonm64]

im in the same boat right now with my 9 week old male Maximus (Max) however i do see a slight improvement every day thank god ;)

just hang in there an be consistant, and things WILL improve. my last Rottie wasnt this bad, but over time he did get better as remember. it's been 13 years since i have had a Rottie pup, and i had forgotten so much. thank god for the people on this forum!

[hokisteph5]

Beyond the advice already given, instead of just using toys, you could try something like a Chilly Bone. I found it helped keep my dogs' attention better than a toy. I think the cold felt good on their teething gums.

[moondog]

Originally Posted by supernurse

Then once he got ahold of my pants and growled and wouldn't let go. At one point in class the trainer came over ( he has been training dogs for 40 years) and he told me I need to get him under control or we will have a problem (duh!) and he smacked him on the mouth. He told me to smack him hard enough that the dog's teeth click together.

Find a new trainer.....the one you have may have been training dogs for 40 years, but he's been doing it using the archaic methods in vogue at the time he first learned them and it appears he hasn't learned anything new since. This type of punishment for a completely normal puppy behavior only serves to antagonize your puppy, which makes it worse rather than better.

Obedience class at this age should be all fun and games for basic manners, not "obedience".

You need to consistently redirect to an ALLOWED chew toy and PRAISE when the puppy chews it and will need to continue this for quite some time to come. Puppies bite, puppies teethe, puppies don't know how else to use their mouths unless we show them.

[supernurse]

Thank you all for your answers- yes, I will use paragraphs. Sorry, it was my first post and I wasn't sure how it would appear from typing it in the little box :) What about the hand on collar cupping his muzzle method that I read about on a thread on here. Do you think that's appropriate? Do you hold on to the muzzle until they yip? Or just shut their mouth and then let go?
I've found that when I go to grab his collar he knows he's going to get a correction and he goes to nip at my hand as I reach for him. I decided I'm just going to keep him on the leash when he's out so I can grab onto that if I need to quickly.
I have to say I was at my most frustrated last night, but coming to this site and reading everyone's posts helps to reassure me. I'm feeling much better about our puppy today and he needs that from me as much as I need to feel that way. Thanks again.

[moondog]

I've never seen the need to "cup the muzzle" - that's just another antagonistic approach, and antagonism tends to wind them up more. Teach your puppy what he CAN do with his mouth and he will be happy to oblige you. He just doesn't know yet. Interrupt (Ah! Ah! You Rascal!) and Redirect (THIS is what you get to bite! Good puppy!)

[JoJo]

It amazes me when people that don't know their right hand from their left hand calls themselves "trainer" and then uses years of doing it as their defense!

I'm with the rest here, if that jerk smacked my pup he'd find himself in another planet.

Check out the stickys in this forum. They are full of good information that will help you out. Positive motivation/redirection is the key. Keep your puppy happy and teach him to respect you, not fear you (your hand). Just remember, respect runs both ways and smacking isn't one way of getting it.

http://www.rottweiler.net/forums/pup...nance-etc.html

Welcome to the forum!

[poohbearsmom]

You have taken the responsibility of owning a species which has to MODIFY it's natural behavior in order to live harmoniouslly with humans in a human world. PATIENCE is MANDATORY when dealing with a pup. Would you smack a 6 month old child for crying just because it frustrated you? Since your name is "supernurse", I'd bet not. Instead, you would be patient and understand that the communication barrier is huge. I bet you'd try different things until you found an action that worked.

The Sticky JoJo posted is excellent, in addition, please read all the stickies in the Puppy Forum as well as the other Forums on this Board. Use the search function on the tool bar at the top of the page, and above all, learn how to redirect your puppy!

If you find yourself at your wit's end - crate him until you can deal with him, don't punish him and put him in his crate, just stick him inside with a neutral posture.

The LEASH is your very best friend when you're rearing a puppy. You can control the outcome of a situation if you are attached to the little darling. When he's loose, as long as you can supervise him 100%, let him drag a leash around. If you can't supervise him 100%, don't have him loose.

Any trainer who suggests striking a puppy needs to have his/her head examined. Any trainer who strikes a puppy that is not his/her own... well, I concur with JoJo on her stance.

This is the time in a pup's life that bonds and trust are built with humans. This is the time in a pup's life that it should be exploring and testing (with sharp teeth sometimes!) out it's new world. Boundaries are set, PLAY is oh-so-important for young ones, so find a way to divert your pup into behaviors you want, instead of behaviors that make you leak blood.

Please find a trainer who uses Operant Conditioning Techniques. Puppies should be trained VERY motivationally, with as much positive reinforcement and negative punishment (witholding the reward) as possible, bringing in only enough compulsion/correction to get the job done.

Patience is a Virgin.

[aldelgreco]

if you're at your wit's end with a little bit of puppy nipping at 11 1/2 weeks, we are going to need to put you on 24-hour suicide watch starting at about 6 months.

[Sportdog]

Hello I am new here to this forumn but you have a problem First when he wants to bite your hand do not say ANYTHING just but your three or four fingers in his mouth to the back of his throat and mash down like you are feeding him your fingers he will not like that and will spit out your fingers do this with out saying ANYTHING. Now for the biting when he wants to bite you or another family member you need to redirect him to a bite toy so he can learn what he can and cannot bite. When you hollar and scream at a dog that does not understand what you are trying to communicate he may think you are encouraging him to do what you do not want him to do . You must also teach him the OUT now but do this without correction.

[Maxxx]

Originally Posted by Sportdog

First when he wants to bite your hand do not say ANYTHING just but your three or four fingers in his mouth to the back of his throat and mash down like you are feeding him your fingers he will not like that and will spit out your fingers do this with out saying ANYTHING.

Jamming your fingers down his throat to make him choke??? How does that teach your puppy not to bite?

Patience and redirection is all that's needed. Lots of it. Period. There is not quick fix. Babies need to learn. Mashing your fingers down a puppy's throat is not going to teach them anything!

[JoJo]

Sportdog, please read the link that I posted to the OP and also please read ALL of the stickys that are in this forum. Advise that you just gave will constitute you to be in the same category as this OP's "trainer"....which is from the dark ages.