"Selective" Aggression problem

[ZYNE]

Alright ya'll, I have a question I'm desperately in need of some insight on. I have a 3 month old female named Ammi who's a total sweetheart ... with me.
In the last 5-7 days she has shown an aggressive side with my wife which culminated this morning with her biting my wifes hand and leaving a 1/2 inch deep puncture wound.
She is VERY obedient with me and we focus her life around having to work for everything, exercise, calm/submissive state of mind, structured play etc. She is soo sweet with me as well as with my wife, the majority of the time.
What set things off today was my wife was drying her paws (we are VERY gentle with her paws) after having been out to let her pee and the dog just lost it with her. I didn't see this personally as I was at work when this happened but from what my wife told her she would not submit to her when put in the submissive position on her back or on her side. She whipped her head around and attacked my wifes hand and bit her palm just below the thumb.
I have *NEVER* seen this kind of behavior in her, not even when she had her puppy snarling going on which we curbed easily and quickly. I know she won't do this to me but I'm at a point where I'm actually worried about this.
I'm NOT getting rid of the dog or putting her down so before anyone suggests that, just don't.
She's not an aggressive dog and my wife can often be found with the dog coming up to give her a lick or wanting to lay next to her on the floor while she watches TV or what not.

I'm flabbergasted as to what is causing this other than maybe she is challanging for dominance but yet she obeys my wifes every command except when she gets aggitated like this. I've personally not experienced it myself but I've seen it a couple of times and it's to a point where it would concern me as well if I was in that situation.

If anyone has ANY insight to this, please let me know. I'm truly concerned about this and I need to have her check the dogs behavior right away. Me doing it won't do no good, I could tie a knot out of that dog and she wouldn't as much as raise an eyebrow towards me. We don't treat her any differently either so this baffles me even more ..

Anyhow .. any input would be so very appreciated right now

Thanks

Nick

[moondog]

Originally Posted by ZYNE

What set things off today was my wife was drying her paws (we are VERY gentle with her paws) after having been out to let her pee and the dog just lost it with her. .....from what my wife told her she would not submit to her when put in the submissive position on her back or on her side. She whipped her head around and attacked my wifes hand and bit her palm just below the thumb.

Why did your wife put her on her back (or on her side)?

Forcing a puppy (or dog) to the ground is a threat to their very life in THEIR mind. So of course she had to fight for her life, and she did.

This kind of treatment (alpha roll stuff) is absolutely the wrong way to go, unless YOUR life is being threatened.

Read through the puppy development forum for some better ways to foster an attitude of cooperation in your puppy and things will go MUCH smoother.

[lblax]

She is VERY obedient with me and we focus her life around having to work for everything, exercise, calm/submissive state of mind, structured play etc. She is soo sweet with me as well as with my wife, the majority of the time.
What set things off today was my wife was drying her paws (we are VERY gentle with her paws) after having been out to let her pee and the dog just lost it with her. I didn't see this personally as I was at work when this happened but from what my wife told her she would not submit to her when put in the submissive position on her back or on her side. She whipped her head around and attacked

she is three month old and making your dog submit is never the way to go you should have let the puppy be a puppy when it needed to be instead of squelching everything. my advice would be to re home the dog with a family that knows how to raise a puppy and then after you do some resurche and have a clue try it again.

[Casey Jones]

I too would be concerned with this behavior from a 12 week old puppy! I'm certainly no expert, but I'd say that the puppy sees herself as higher up in rank than your wife. I'd look up NILIF and have your wife work with the dog. You too, but mostly your wife. Thank god this happend now and not when she's 80+lbs.

and like moondog said, it's really not a good idea to force any dog on its side or back.

[Shelby427]

I agree with Moondog - the technique (if you can even call it that) is old school and NOT the way to go. This is a PUPPY. AN INFANT that you're forcing to the ground? Would you do that to an infant human? No. This puppy doesn't know what is right and wrong yet, you have to teach that and if your wife is not respected, well, she needs to up her leadership asap, not by bullying though.

You need to learn canine behavior. So does your wife. Don't lay on the ground with the puppy, this puts you on the same level as her. Just like you shouldn't have the puppy on the couch or furniture.

Read through the forums and you'll find lots of good information.

[moondog]

Originally Posted by Casey Jones

I too would be concerned with this behavior from a 12 week old puppy!

The puppy's behavior was completely predictable! It's the behavior of the owner that caused the puppy to react that way and it's the behavior of the owner that concerns me.

Raising a puppy is not a contest on who wins, owner or puppy. Raising a puppy should be a fun and challenging exercise in building a relationship built on trust and cooperation. That is impossible to obtain by overpowering a baby puppy for some crazy reason.

[tla0126]

My advice is don't listen to lblax. Everyone makes mistakes, atleast you are trying to find advice. Just know, like moondog and others have said, its ya'lls behavior you most likely need to correct rather than your pups. I have found a TON of good advice in these forums, and like Shelby said, search through them and you should be able to learn a lot too!

[lblax]

Originally Posted by tla0126

My advice is don't listen to lblax. Everyone makes mistakes, atleast you are trying to find advice. Just know, like moondog and others have said, its ya'lls behavior you most likely need to correct rather than your pups. I have found a TON of good advice in these forums, and like Shelby said, search through them and you should be able to learn a lot too!

lets see theyve already nilif'ed the dog to death they have been doing ongoing alpha rolls and they believe that a 12 week old puppy is aggressive now its time they let the puppy be a puppy and in case anyone else hasnt noticed the op posted and has done every single thing (almost ) that you shouldnt do with a pup

[Ayoka]

Originally Posted by ZYNE

calm/submissive state of mind...

This is a saying popularised by ceaser milan and he seems to have also recently popularised the alpha rolls (forcing a dog on the ground) although I hear that he does this less and less on the show.

If you are a fan of his show/books, I would advise enjoying it as entertainment and get yourself to seeing a real trainer in person to get things on track and into more appropriate methods of dealing with the behaviour. If you heard it from a trainer, I'd find a new one...

Given the age of the dog (and puppies to nip & bite), I think that you should commit to some training and your girl is the right age for puppy classes. I should also add that and your wife both go to classes and have your wife work him through class while you be there to listen to what the trainer says so that the 2 of you are on the same page.

[mamamia1]

I had a very similar occurrence about 3 weeks ago.
Please read over this thread, I'm sure you'll find it useful in more ways than one.
http://www.rottweiler.net/forums/pup...blishment.html

Bottom Line: I have very quickly realized that the only time my pup aggressively bit me was during an alpha roll. They're dangerous and just don't work. 3 weeks of consistent training later, my girl offers up submission ON HER OWN, without being forced. Forcing a dog in a submission position does not make a dog submissive, just the same as forcing a dog into a sit or a down does not teach them the command.

Stick with positive reinforcement training, keeping your cool with calm deliberate control and lots of praise/treats for good behaviour. You will find a world of difference.

[tla0126]

Originally Posted by lblax

lets see theyve already nilif'ed the dog to death they have been doing ongoing alpha rolls and they believe that a 12 week old puppy is aggressive now its time they let the puppy be a puppy and in case anyone else hasnt noticed the op posted and has done every single thing (almost ) that you shouldnt do with a pup

I'm not saying to NOT let the puppy be a puppy. I agree with that statement. All I'm saying is that it is poor advice to tell them to rehome it when the situation can be corrected. People make mistakes. The good thing is, they are here now receiving loads of good advice.

[fostermom]

A couple of things come to mind from reading your post...
As everyone said, what your wife was in effect doing was an alpha roll...when I got my first rott I was in a class where the "trainer" (I use the term trainer loosely) alpha rolled a pup, and remember the pup screaming in fear....so I guess I'm not suprised that she reacted.
Second, many rotts have issues with having their feet handled (so your pup got the double wammy of an alpha roll AND her feet grabbed and paniced)...if your wife wants to dry off her feet, it might be a good idea to gradually get the pup used to this...one way we did that was with clicker training...
get a clicker (most pet stores sell them) and click, then treat several times (sensitizing to the click) until the dog understands that a treat immediately follows a click.
Then have your wife lay her hand very close to the pup's paw...any time the pup (even accidently) touches her hand, she needs to immediately click and treat. After doing that for a day or two, wait for the pup to deliberately touch your wife's hand. When she does, click and treat.
Once she is doing that regularly, only click and treat if the pup actually puts her paw in your wife's hand (it WILL happen..but you need patience)
Then you can put the towel near the pup's paw and click for any contact with that.....slowly build up to your wife being able to use the towel on the pup and her being able to handle, pick up the paw.
Do read through the puppy training section...loads of good info.
And best of luck with your pup.

[ZYNE]

Originally Posted by moondog

Why did your wife put her on her back (or on her side)?

Forcing a puppy (or dog) to the ground is a threat to their very life in THEIR mind. So of course she had to fight for her life, and she did.

This kind of treatment (alpha roll stuff) is absolutely the wrong way to go, unless YOUR life is being threatened.

Read through the puppy development forum for some better ways to foster an attitude of cooperation in your puppy and things will go MUCH smoother.

I am personally not in favor of this method either and that's about the only place where the wife and I differ. I usually kneel down on the floor and put the puppy between my legs in a sitting position. I put my right hand on the collar and my left on her chest. That calms her down whenever I need to get her to chill.

[ZYNE]

Originally Posted by lblax

she is three month old and making your dog submit is never the way to go you should have let the puppy be a puppy when it needed to be instead of squelching everything. my advice would be to re home the dog with a family that knows how to raise a puppy and then after you do some resurche and have a clue try it again.

Thank you for your wonderful insight. Next time you have something like this to write, get a postit, write it down, then throw it in the trash. I was looking for CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, not your verbal assault of my wife's methods.

If you want to let a puppy that is ATTACKING your hand be a puppy, feel free. Next time you reply you can do that with your bloody stumps.

Do me a favor, next time you feel like replying to a post of mine, don't. I have no interest in your opinions from here on out.

[ZYNE]

I'll just say thank you to the two posters who actually managed to NOT flame me, Thanks ... the rest of ya's ... well, you're the very reasons why I don't post much here ... Personally I think you all need a SERIOUS lesson in HUMAN behavior and interaction because falling short in this area would be a compliment to ya's more than anything else!!!