"Selective" Aggression problem

[Xena's Daddy]

Originally Posted by moondog

In my experience, you won't find a better dog than a well-raised, well-trained, solid tempered Rottweiler....they are worth every ounce of effort put into them.

AMEN!!! Couldn't agree more. About both the Rottie being worth every ounce of effort, AND that your wife needs to get on board! (Absolutely critical........)

Good luck,
MK

[ZYNE]

Originally Posted by moondog

Do a google search on Tag Teach - clicker concepts are now being used very effectively for teaching athletes, children, and adults. Maybe we can try it on ZYNE'S beloved second half!

May not be a bad idea ... I already have the clicker so I could start tonight!!! LOL!

[tla0126]

Maybe you and your wife could go to obedience classes together? Like you have mentioned, it doesn't sound like you have any issues personally with the dog, but maybe with you and your wife training your pup in a structured environment together, ya'll will be on the same page. Especially if you are getting reinforcement from a professional infront of your wife. Keep us posted and let us know how it progresses!

[moondog]

Originally Posted by ZYNE

May not be a bad idea ... I already have the clicker so I could start tonight!!! LOL!

Yes! LOL.... I do hope your wife will come and read about Rottweilers and how best to handle their puppy antics. Do make sure to tell her that we tease in jest - we want your entire clan to be safe, happy, and well rewarded.

[ZYNE]

TLA, as stated in a previous post (assuming it was approved lol) puppy classes start tomorrow evening :-) There's no doubt about the need for obedience classes and proper socialization, it's a must with an animal this big and powerful.
That is a good point though. Maybe she needs to hear what I say to her from another person and it will sink in. Anyone want to call her? I can write it all down and you can read it to her LOL!!! All joking aside, you are dead on with what you said .. I think it bottoms down to having to hear it from a professional trainer to make it "legit" .. which in itself kind of pisses me off a bit ... LOL!

[ZYNE]

Originally Posted by moondog

Yes! LOL.... I do hope your wife will come and read about Rottweilers and how best to handle their puppy antics. Do make sure to tell her that we tease in jest - we want your entire clan to be safe, happy, and well rewarded.

I see how this is .. ya'll tease and I end up sleeping on the couch for it ... greeeeeeaaaaat!!! LOL!

I have actually tried getting her on here but she's not much for the forums for some reason. I personally think they are a great resource and I actually admin on another site (HUMMER related though) as a result of it.

My entire clan huh ... do you realize I'm the only male in my house between one wife, one dog, and 3 cats? I'm having weekly testosterone shots done just to make sure I remember and continue being the gender I am hehehehe.

[tla0126]

Ahh..I tried to read all the posts to make sure I wasn't repeating anything!! I guess I missed that one, my bad...

Hahaha, no one likes hearing they are doing something wrong, especially if it is from a significant other. Hopefully it won't be as offensive coming from the trainer!

Good Luck!

[ZYNE]

All joking and verbal jousting aside here ya'll .. thanks for all your input and insight in to this .... even to you Mr Bitter Pill, LOL!. I tolerate most things, even the intolerable ... most of the time :-)

[ZYNE]

Originally Posted by tla0126

Ahh..I tried to read all the posts to make sure I wasn't repeating anything!! I guess I missed that one, my bad...

Hahaha, no one likes hearing they are doing something wrong, especially if it is from a significant other. Hopefully it won't be as offensive coming from the trainer!

Good Luck!

Thanks, I have a feeling I may need it.

Hey now, constructive criticism is how we learn, how can you find that offensive?? It's not the fact that she's doing wrong, she just needs to adapt a different menality and method .. *phew* .. positive reinforcement hard at work .. were's my @#$%@Q!@#$!@#$! clicker ..LOL!

[tla0126]

Ha.. I didn't say I would be offended! =) Maybe I worded it incorrectly anyways, what I should have said, and what I meant was:

"Some people feel their method is best, and when told there is a way of getting a desired result in a different manner, they don't want to listen, especially if it is coming from a significant other. Hopefully, she will hear the trainers advice, and run with it...

Sound Better? Sorry, I had my mix all talked up...

[lblax]

this will explain partly what i mean about a puppy being a puppy and that your dog at this point doesnt need formal obiediance the following is a generic really short ideas on raising a schutzhund puppy even though you may or may not ever do schutzhund it is still the best start for your dog to become a stable adult dog.
the following is from the usa site


Raising a Puppy for Schutzhund Work
Puppy hood is the most critical period for the development of the characteristics you want to encourage. Your local Schutzhund club can advise you about nurturing and socializing your growing puppy. A puppy learns from its experiences, so you want to provide only positive ones. It should be provided with opportunity to explore and investigate new situations and new people, but always in a non-threatening way. Remember that your goal is to build confidence in the young animal. Your aim is not to dominate or oppress the young pup. Exposure to different environments is crucial to the general education of the dog and also to assure it that the world is a safe place. If something appears to make the dog unsure, give it the opportunity to investigate it slowly, but do not force the issue.

It is imperative to avoid situations where your dog would be dominated by another, older or stronger dog, or by another puppy. You also want to avoid having to discipline or correct your puppy and thus dampen its spirit or damage its self-confidence. You can do this by never leaving the pup in a situation where it can cause damage to your valuables or find itself in a dangerous predicament.

The final area of development is that of drive encouragement. The natural behaviors that you want to encourage are playing with the ball, tug of war, hide and seek, pulling toys on a string, pursuing you rapidly when you run away, and finally defending itself, its family, and its home. The latter really only shows itself between the ages of nine and 18 months, as the pup begins to mature, by barking at strangers or intruders. Acceptable manners at home and in the car and "play" training, like learning to sit for a food reward, with no corrections involved, is advisable. Real obedience work can begin once the puppy is more mature. It is better to leave for later formal obedience training with a young dog. The character of the puppy is not sufficiently strong to withstand the stress that may be involved in obedience training.

[ZYNE]

Originally Posted by lblax

you personally wasnt being targeted there is a lot to be said for raising a puppie only to have manners with little other training up until 6 months or so. while rotts are great dogs it all begins with there breeding and then how they are raised as a pup, we see at our training facility rotts/dobe/ gsd/border collies that people bring in because of severe problems unfortunatly many of them are pts a few of them are geneticly wired wrong but most are a product of there envirorment by well meaning owners that love there animals there were several things that alerted me from your 1st posts they were as follows
1. the thought that a 12 week old is showing aggression
2. the alpha rolls
3. 1 person having problems in the family with the dog
4.the fact that a 12 week old dog is totally obediant with you( the best trainer in the world doesnt have an obidiant 12 week old it is possible but the methods are questionable)
5. the fact that your having trouble convinsing your wife on what to do
6.
the time period your dog has just went though is the most important developement times in its life and the time to prepare the home on behaviour and training methods is before the dog is purchesed, hence my origional statement to rehome the dog do your resurch and get another dog after everything is agreed apon. the above things are some of the items people tell us when they bring there dogs in along with my pup bites and snarls at me all the time one thing people must remember dogs dont have hands and they cant talk so the only way they have to interact with you is with there mouths(of course everyone has a point where the dog gets too much and at this point instead of corrections its better to just put the pup in the crate and let him chill out) i think you have good intentions but regardless of the tips you get here or other places if your wife is not on board you will fail its really that simple everyone is on the same thought or you fail. thats the very 1st thing you must do is get your wife to understand that it will only keep esculating until she does

Well, first out .. you didn't bother to do much other than fire at me from the get go .. obviously it's going to generate a wee bit of defensiveness .. you did come across as being very .. target oriented as well ... not appreciated here .. be constructive, not destructive.

Fair enough, you were alerted by the wording of my post .. suggestion .. instead of flaming the person .. do what you just did and actually make some sense as to why ... while puppies don't have hands to feel with, I don't read minds ..especially not across the Internet :-)

If you want to question my methods and that I work with her on her "manors" , feel free to do so, I welcome that. I should probably heed my own advice and clearify "totally" was not a reference to "100%" or "completely" ... I ment that as "she is obedient with me and does not do this stuff with me". That is my miswording of what I ment, I hope this clears up what I ment by that remark. You also stated she is NILIF:ed to death, which in itself is a ridiculous remark since you can't possibly have the first idea of what goes on in my house or how I personally treat her ... You go only by what I have shared of my wife's experience this morning and it's brave, very very brame to make the assumptions you have made in this case. They are after all the mother of all muckups .. and can bite you royally in the end.

I have to admit I respect your straight forwardness and honesty to me. I do agree (damnit, again) the wife aspect is an issue, an enormous issue. It's clear this needs to change yesterday, not today or tomorrow, yesterday.
Don't think I don't respect your input and advice, I do. Just re-evaluate your methods in which you deliver it and I could probably tolerate your bitter azz ... :-)

All joking aside, thanks for taking the time to explain what you ment initially .. I appreciate it. I'm off to reschool a wife .. wish me luck ... and if I'm not back on here in the next 10-12 days or so .. send a squad car ... please!

[Ayoka]

Originally Posted by ZYNE

Maybe she needs to hear what I say to her from another person and it will sink in....I think it bottoms down to having to hear it from a professional trainer to make it "legit" .. which in itself kind of pisses me off a bit ... LOL!

This is my experience with a BF who was brought up training dogs in a much rougher manner than I thought was necessary...he's come around.

And yes positive reinforcement works for people....I make a concious effort at home to try it instead of NAGGING....

[ZYNE]

Originally Posted by lblax

this will explain partly what i mean about a puppy being a puppy and that your dog at this point doesnt need formal obiediance the following is a generic really short ideas on raising a schutzhund puppy even though you may or may not ever do schutzhund it is still the best start for your dog to become a stable adult dog.
the following is from the usa site


Raising a Puppy for Schutzhund Work
Puppy hood is the most critical period for the development of the characteristics you want to encourage. Your local Schutzhund club can advise you about nurturing and socializing your growing puppy. A puppy learns from its experiences, so you want to provide only positive ones. It should be provided with opportunity to explore and investigate new situations and new people, but always in a non-threatening way. Remember that your goal is to build confidence in the young animal. Your aim is not to dominate or oppress the young pup. Exposure to different environments is crucial to the general education of the dog and also to assure it that the world is a safe place. If something appears to make the dog unsure, give it the opportunity to investigate it slowly, but do not force the issue.

It is imperative to avoid situations where your dog would be dominated by another, older or stronger dog, or by another puppy. You also want to avoid having to discipline or correct your puppy and thus dampen its spirit or damage its self-confidence. You can do this by never leaving the pup in a situation where it can cause damage to your valuables or find itself in a dangerous predicament.

The final area of development is that of drive encouragement. The natural behaviors that you want to encourage are playing with the ball, tug of war, hide and seek, pulling toys on a string, pursuing you rapidly when you run away, and finally defending itself, its family, and its home. The latter really only shows itself between the ages of nine and 18 months, as the pup begins to mature, by barking at strangers or intruders. Acceptable manners at home and in the car and "play" training, like learning to sit for a food reward, with no corrections involved, is advisable. Real obedience work can begin once the puppy is more mature. It is better to leave for later formal obedience training with a young dog. The character of the puppy is not sufficiently strong to withstand the stress that may be involved in obedience training.

With the exception of my wifes alpha rolls and the apparent "wrong doing" in teaching basic commands her life doesn't differ much from this.
My whole life is centered around this dog and allowing her to experience different environments, meet new people, meet other dogs, and "draw a general picture of her world".
She is about as self confident as they come and she has only really backed off once when meeting a Greyhound last week. They have met twice since then and after a thorough rear end introduction, LOL, they've actually even played. This was done by allowing HER to call the shots and figure out the other dog, not by force. I don't do things by force, there's no need for it in my opinion.

As far as avoiding to discipline a dog, that goes flat out against everything I've ever heard and done with a dog in the past. If my dog is chewing on my couch for example, she will be told NO and redirected. Not that this has happened but she has managed to pull my shoes off the shelf a few times before they were relocated higher up thus resolving that problem.


As far as the behaviours you state needs to be encouraged ... this is more or less what I do daily .. both outside as well as in the house. Everything from fetch to tug of war, hide and seek and "chase". The defending herself part I have not tried as a part of play time simply because *I've* been told to wait until she is older for that.
As far as protection home and family .. she is too young at 3 months (born Dec 25th by the way) but the few times we've had strange noises she has barked once or twice and pursued them by walking to where she believes they come from and then just stands there, either with a low growl going or she will let out short, low volume barks.

You also say it's advisable to make them sit for a food reward, you reprimanded me for this very behavior stating I NILIF:ed her to death ... kind of contradictory to this if you ask me.

Bottom line is, she's not "drilled" or forced in to any kind of behavior other than the back asswards alpha rolls my wife have been doing... she's rewarded when she does good, such as when she sits before feeding or going outside so I can leash her. She ALWAYS received verbal and physical praise when she does good. Shy of when she has been on electrical chords or something that can hurt her, furniture/clothing/shoes she is NEVER disallowed doing whatever it is she's doing.

You are also stating in this that "real" obedience work can start when more mature. Please define REAL obedience work because I think we're talking about two different levels of obedience. I'm talking BASIC GOOD MANORS, nothing else ... she's not being drilled on for example the CGC requirements or novice requirements, that will come later in life.... If this is a problem, why is this taught in puppy kindergarten?? Just curious ... I guess I just assumed my statements in the initial post made sense rather than explain them which I have asked you to do so at least I can return that favor.

We're not horrid puppy parents .. there are some kinks to work out with the approach my wife has on the alpha rolls ... most certainly a puppy must be allowed to be a puppy first and foremost, as long as that does not put her at risk of injury or death.

Hope this makes more sense and puts your mind a bit more to ease ...

[fostermom]

Originally Posted by ZYNE

Bwahahaha ... I'll have to adapt that to the wife but I just don't think she will take to the liver treats I feed Ammi very well ... LOL!

My clicker trainer used M&M's as reinforcement on the grandkids...just a thought.