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Nutrition and Grooming Cleaning teeth, clipping nails got you stumped? Should you feed natural or commercial? Here's the place to post your comments and get your answers.

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  #1  
Old 01-20-2011, 11:52 AM
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salmon oil and vitamin E

Hi all,

I am planning on starting my boy on Natural Factors Omega-3, 100% Wild Salmon Oil (various reasons - long term joint benefits, healthy skin, shiny fur, its cold so I've go the heating on quite a bit so I don't want his skin to go dry etc).

I've read that some people advise that vitamin E should be added too, as the salmon oil might cause a deficiency.

Sammy is my first Rottweiler, and I've not had a large breed dog before, so this stuff is new to me. I've had quite a few kelpies and cattle dogs, but never gave them supplements of any kind, so I am trying to educate myself a bit.

Does anyone have any advise on this, please? Thank you
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  #2  
Old 01-21-2011, 07:38 AM
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Post Re: salmon oil and vitamin E

I add one 400 unit capsule of vitamin E three times per week. I just throw the capsule on top of their food.

Gina
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  #3  
Old 01-21-2011, 10:59 AM
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Re: salmon oil and vitamin E

Thanks, Gina, that's really helpful.
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Old 01-21-2011, 02:16 PM
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Re: salmon oil and vitamin E

I do the same, 400 iu, but I feed it daily.

In the event you are wondering why...

In order to process the O3 PUFAs (polyunsaturated fatty acids) the body uses Vit E. Vit E is fat soluble (as opposed to water soluble) and is stored, well, in the fat. As the body uses it, if not replenished, the dog obviously becomes deficient. The problem is that Vit E deficiency does not show its self right away, it can take years to become obvious that there is a problem, and by then it is a big one. It leads to neurological problems and muscle weakness. But in the interim it can show as fatigue, weakness, nausea, diarrhea, dull coat and a few other things that are harder to diagnose on dogs like headaches. But again, problems don't show up for a while, and the firsts signs could be many other things that are much more common, so when they happen to older (6-10 year old dogs) we just assume the dog is only aging.

Normally a dog (or wild canid I guess) would get a diet rich in O3 FAs and Vit E naturally in the prey they eat. The prey would have natural body fat with a proper balance of Omegas (a proper O3-O6 ratio) and the right amount of Vit E to utilize it. Unfortunately the meat we feed today is highly grain fed and has a VERY unbalanced amount of O6 (which is why supplement O3, to even the scale) and very little/not enough Vit E. On top of that we tend to have available only leaner meats (this is what sells, so supply and demand blahblahblah, our meat is specifically engineered to be leaner that it has ever been) for our raw fed dogs.

For kibble fed dogs, any fats in the meat that may be in there is over cooked and the fatty acids are destroyed (VERY heat/light sensitive) along with the Vit E. Most pet foods spray a vit/mineral concoction on, but it quickly begins to break down as well. And it is still an unbalanced O3-O6 ratio 'cause O6 is WAY cheaper to get.

WHEEEWWWW!!!!

That was a long one!

But now you know...
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  #5  
Old 01-21-2011, 04:36 PM
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Re: salmon oil and vitamin E

Thanks for that Noelle. I've always supplemented daily with the vitamin E, also. But I couldn't remember why !!!
NOW I KNOW :))
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Old 01-22-2011, 12:29 AM
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Re: salmon oil and vitamin E

If you are going to add Vitamin E, try to find only the natural which is d-alpha tocopherol and NOT the dl-alpha tocopherol which is a synthetic form is not well absorbed. The "dl-alpha" is a waste of money.
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  #7  
Old 01-24-2011, 07:16 AM
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Re: salmon oil and vitamin E

Thank you for the extra info Noelle & Adamsmom - VERY helpful. (sorry about the delayed thanks - I'm one of the few people left in the UK who doesn't have internet at home, only work!)
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Old 03-21-2011, 10:37 PM
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Re: salmon oil and vitamin E

We feed our little guy 1000 mg of fish oil (which has a combined 300 mg of the omega 3s EPA and DHA) every day and 400 i.u. of Vit E every other day. We live in a really dry cold climate and the supplements really seem to help with dandruff and his coat is really soft and shiny.
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Old 03-24-2011, 09:29 AM
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Re: salmon oil and vitamin E

Thanks Amy Kay. He's been on it for a couple of months now. It really does make their fur lovely and shiny, doesn't it!! Soft too.
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  #10  
Old 03-25-2011, 01:10 AM
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Re: salmon oil and vitamin E

Yes, I feel like it really does. Recently we went on a trip and Cash was off the supplements for a week or so and there was a noticeable different in just that amount of time. Needless to say we got him back on them right away. By the way, every once in a while he decides he doesn't want to eat them, so I dip them in plain yogurt (dont use the flavored stuff) and he gobbles them down right away. Im sure there are a number of things that would work just as well. Might come in handy down the road.
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  #11  
Old 05-17-2011, 08:51 PM
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Re: salmon oil and vitamin E

here's an on topic/ off topic questions

For the prey model feeders...

I've read the omega 6 in human grade food is out of whack so it's a good idea to use omega 3 (fish oil )to help balance out the meat . For a beginner in the raw diet, when would I introduce the omega 3, when he gets used to the raw chicken which will be the first meat?

Pork will be his 2nd meat when he gets used to the chicken. Could I add the fish oil then?

since I'm going the prey model route, would I have to worry about adding Vitamin E, wouldn't he get enough of that from the raw kidney's and liver?
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Old 05-17-2011, 11:43 PM
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Re: salmon oil and vitamin E

Good question!

I start giving the FO after the dog has good poop on two different protein sources and I am giving the chicken parts with all the fat and skin left on. For my pups, this has always been within the first two weeks.

Once the dog is dealing well with the chicken fat, I stop trying to introduce anything new until the dog is dealing well with the full dose that I give. I give 1,000 mg the first day, and if there is no change in the pups poop I give that dose again on day two. On day three I give 1,500 mg, assuming that all is good with the poops from the day before, and then again watch to make sure that the pup is handling it well. By day five the pup is getting 2,000 mg a day and by day seven they are at 3,000 mg.

Now I start giving the pup 200 iu Vit E as well (day eight) and then continue adding new protein sources as normal. If at any point the pup gets loose stool during this process, I go back to what they were getting with goo stool and stay there for an extra couple of days, but then this goes with any change in the diet.

I always give 1,000 mg of FO per ten pounds of puppy or dog body weight, and for dogs/pups under 40 lbs I give 200 iu Vit E, and over get 400 iu Vit E (toy sized dogs get 100 iu...)

All raw feeders, if they feed more than 50% of the diet raw, need to be adding in organs. Unfortunately, the Vit E still needs to be supplemented. It is not that the organs, and fat for that matter, don't have any Vit E, it is that the chicken/pig/cow/sheep is just not getting enough Vit E in its diet and so has no stores for the predator to gain from.

Realistically though, most don't ever give their dogs FO much less Vit E...

Good luck!
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Old 05-18-2011, 12:01 AM
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Re: salmon oil and vitamin E

For years I used the Grizzly salmon oil and then found from here to add Vit E to it. They get 400 IU daily but I did change them from the Salmon Oil to BioFats which has Omega 3,6, & 9. It made a huge difference in their coats and flaking. Sadie was never a problem but Tyson seemed to have a coarser coat and what looked like dandruff when he was stressed, especially at the Trainer's. The Trainer remarked how beautiful his coat is now since he's been on it for the past month. This is one product I'm going to stick with along with the Vit E capsules.
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Old 05-18-2011, 10:34 PM
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Re: salmon oil and vitamin E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noelle View Post
Good question!

I start giving the FO after the dog has good poop on two different protein sources and I am giving the chicken parts with all the fat and skin left on. For my pups, this has always been within the first two weeks.

Once the dog is dealing well with the chicken fat, I stop trying to introduce anything new until the dog is dealing well with the full dose that I give. I give 1,000 mg the first day, and if there is no change in the pups poop I give that dose again on day two. On day three I give 1,500 mg, assuming that all is good with the poops from the day before, and then again watch to make sure that the pup is handling it well. By day five the pup is getting 2,000 mg a day and by day seven they are at 3,000 mg.

Now I start giving the pup 200 iu Vit E as well (day eight) and then continue adding new protein sources as normal. If at any point the pup gets loose stool during this process, I go back to what they were getting with goo stool and stay there for an extra couple of days, but then this goes with any change in the diet.

I always give 1,000 mg of FO per ten pounds of puppy or dog body weight, and for dogs/pups under 40 lbs I give 200 iu Vit E, and over get 400 iu Vit E (toy sized dogs get 100 iu...)

All raw feeders, if they feed more than 50% of the diet raw, need to be adding in organs. Unfortunately, the Vit E still needs to be supplemented. It is not that the organs, and fat for that matter, don't have any Vit E, it is that the chicken/pig/cow/sheep is just not getting enough Vit E in its diet and so has no stores for the predator to gain from.


Realistically though, most don't ever give their dogs FO much less Vit E...

Good luck!
thank you for the great answer, everything that I was looking for. In regards of "most don't ever give FO." Why?

They can get grass fed only animals, so they wouldn't have to worry about the unbalance?

They feed whole fish and don't bother with supplements?

If they feed the whole fish how big does the fish have to be, so you'll know the dog is getting enough omega 3 and vit E? .. depends on the type of fish too I'm assuming?
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  #15  
Old 05-19-2011, 12:46 AM
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Re: salmon oil and vitamin E

I meant most dog owners in general, not just the raw feeders. I actually wish that ALL kibble feeders fed FO because the imbalance of O3 to O6 in kibble is HORRIBLE. All that grain (in most kibbles) is almost noting but O6 and any O3 is short chain, not long chain fatty acids. Many more raw feeders are aware of FO and more likely to supplement it, but even then it is often seen as an optional thing, once a week or every other day.

Also SOOOOOOO many that DO give FO feed way less than what is generally recommended. Many give, for example, 1,000 mg a day to their adult Rott when they really should be giving 8-10 times that amount. Even fewer even give Vit E at all.

Often they have heard somewhere that giving FO is a good thing and helps with the coat (not even realizing WHY it helps and all the other benefits...) so they give their dog a capsule or a dollop of it. The stuff can be expensive, so less is better... They are never told about Vit E supplementation or why it is important/necessary.

IMHO, no modern commercially available meat has enough O3 or Vit E to preclude supplementation. Wild caught raw fish, venison, buffalo etc, different, and fully grass fed cattle (not fattened up on grain the last couple of months, which is legal and VERY typical of "grass fed" beef) would be a different story as well. It has everything to do with what the "dinner" was fed and less to do with what they are. Grain fed meat of any type will be imbalanced.

But most don't worry about it at all. Most don't think about nutrition and the effects poor nutrition has on our dogs OR our own bodies. I just posted a pic in my gallery today of my two year old, Havok. He runs five miles a day, 3-4 day a week and does drag a tire on his walks two days a week (short walks), so he is exercised regularly, but I attribute most of his conditioning to a properly balanced raw diet. I have friends that have a similar exercise routine (even more, like those that COMPETE in weight pulling or run MILES daily) but feed kibble. Hav has much more muscle tone (the pic is through a screen door, but you can see it even with that and him standing calmly in the yard) and way less (zero) health issues.

Sorry. Stepping off my soap box again...
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