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Nutrition and Grooming Cleaning teeth, clipping nails got you stumped? Should you feed natural or commercial? Here's the place to post your comments and get your answers.

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  #1  
Old 01-18-2010, 08:57 PM
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Location: Goderich Ontario
President's Choice First Nutrition Dog Food

Please help me analyze their new food better.

It no longer has Corn or Wheat or Soy... I am comparing it to Performatrin Ultra and find it close. for about $30 a bag (30 lb) cheaper.

PC brand has brands for puppy, senior, regular and large breed (added Glucosomine & chondroitin)

At 26% protein and Chicken meal the first ingredient then oatmeal barley brown rice etc.... the only thing I see if the unknown origin of the Vitamin "K"
Our 9mo. Rotti-X female has been on 4-5 different foods and went over the top hyper with anything with Lamb in it. Grain free made her poop slimy and her eyes weepy. She is about 75 lbs. now and muscular (her cross is Azores Cattledog / Canary Island Mastiff mix mother with German Bloodline Rotti father).

So today I went back to Pet Valu and exchanged the Performatrin Ultra with Lamb for a second bag of Ultra with Chicken (she fared that OK) then popped next door to the Zehrs market and found the 1st Nutrition New formula.

I know there has to be a difference in the ingredient quality but for a supermarket brand am I wrong to think it might not be awful?
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  #2  
Old 01-19-2010, 11:14 AM
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Re: President's Choice First Nutrition Dog Food

Today I sent both package labels to a student in Guelph doing her Masters in Animal Nutrition for an independent assessment. We will wait and see.

Our pup ate heartily on the PC food. It is still half and half mix... but she does not shy away like she did on the Lamb based products in the past.
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  #3  
Old 01-19-2010, 02:48 PM
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Re: President's Choice First Nutrition Dog Food

You may get a biased answer from the Guelph student. Just like the vets at Guelph being taught by the large commerical dog food companies. Most vets sell Medical (Royal Canin)....which is a poor quality, overpriced food...that I would not feed to my dog if I got it for free.

The PC brand of food is mid-quality. Even though it does not contain corn or wheat...it is very grain heavy. Means that there is very little chicken in the food...and lots of grains.

What foods have you tried for your dog? What grain free food have you fed?
I can give you some ideas if you can give me some info.

Also the ingredients used for the PC and for the Performatrin foods are not top quality. You need to feed a food that uses human grade ingredients...which should be meat (named) in the first 1-3 ingredients...followed by a carb or a grain.

Gina
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  #4  
Old 01-19-2010, 03:09 PM
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Location: Goderich Ontario
Re: President's Choice First Nutrition Dog Food

Gina... Thanks

I have fed her lots of Grain free... from Orijen to ACANA Provincial ... then went to Go Natural then Performatrin Ultra.

The Nutritionisy at Go Natural even said the Performatrin was a good quality food on par with the Go Products (roughly the same price point).

Our pup did not fare well on Grain Free. She pooped most of it out and did not fully digest it. Her stool was not consistently solid either.

When we went to the Go Natural that had some grain in is... she firmed up but the price was high. She did well on the Performatrin as well but again I was hunting for a reasonable food for a reasonable price.

Our pup gets tons of exercise and runs free every day by the lake and beach. I'm sure she scavenges bits here and there from the beach and grassy areas that can't be helped.

We have had Labs and Rotti's before (15-17 years old) that thrived on "Special Dinner" (Zehrs House brand- cardboard in a box) with table scraps .
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  #5  
Old 01-19-2010, 07:40 PM
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Post Re: President's Choice First Nutrition Dog Food

You may have been overfeeding the grain free? I've noticed most of them are high in meat and therefore less needs to be fed. This is what may have caused the softer stools.

Have you tried Innova? or California Natural? Both very good foods...but again they are both high in calories...and you will need to feed very little of these foods....2 cups per day will be more then enough for her.

You have to figure out what the food costs per serving...not what it costs per pound. If you are paying $30. for 30lbs of food....or paying $60. for 30 lbs of food but have to feed twice as much of the cheaper food...there really is no savings.

Gina
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  #6  
Old 01-19-2010, 08:10 PM
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Re: President's Choice First Nutrition Dog Food

All the time we fed the Grain Free we were at 1 cup... 3x's a day which was the low end recommended by Championfodds rep and Go Natural rep. The specialty pet food places even indicated that the Orijen/Acana were unusually highly rich for a less than overactive (work) dog.

No matter what.. the Orijen Puppy food caused green mucus stool. Even had it analyzed at the Vet's.

Untill we introduced grains her stool was not stable.

She gets 2 walks a day with some free running and 3-4x's a week she runs with me for a half hour round town. I dead but she's raring to go ... so we play fetch for a half hour in the back yard.

We are now on day 2 of the PC First Nutrition Chicken & Brown Rice Formula.
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  #7  
Old 01-19-2010, 09:05 PM
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Re: President's Choice First Nutrition Dog Food

Just a thought...maybe it's the protein sources, not the grains...food with more carbs sometimes has more fiber too and may be masking the issue you are having with grain free?
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  #8  
Old 01-19-2010, 10:50 PM
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Re: President's Choice First Nutrition Dog Food

Quote:
Originally Posted by gorillaman
All the time we fed the Grain Free we were at 1 cup... 3x's a day...
When I fed kibble Mox ate 2 measured cups of kibble/day divided into breakfast and dinner. She got one small dog biscuit as a good-bye treat when I went to work or left the house to do chores and I generally gave her a slice or two of a piece of fruit I was eating if I felt like giving it to her. Mox weighs about 66 lbs and is a very active dog.

Long way of seconding brunie's mom's point about possibly overfeeding your girl??

Ayoka also raises a good point--maybe it's the protein sources that are disagreeing with your girl??
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  #9  
Old 01-20-2010, 10:55 AM
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Re: President's Choice First Nutrition Dog Food

I was taking the advice of Phd's from Champion Dog Foods and Go NaturaL and specialty pet food stores. They all said the pup should be getting abou 3-3.5 cups a day. This is going back when she was 4-5 months old. The Lamb sourced foods just sent her into an over hyper state .

Now she is about 75 lbs and has about 1.5 - 2 hours of activity a day. She gets a few kibble bits as treats on walks (training treats) . Thats about it. The odd time I will give her a taste of some scrambled egg or a quarter piece of bacon. But that's the extent of her human food.

All the "experts" keep telling me that I have to wait till she is about 12-16 months befor I cut her back to 2 feedings a day and then I will be at about 3.25 cups of food daily if keeping with the same exercise amount. I know some 80 lb. labs that only get about 2.5 cups a day but are not very active.

As she is still only 9 months I want to find a reasonable food as we are hoping to get a second in June. This is very frustrating because all our other dogs (6 of them) in the past lived long lives without so much as a Vet's visit (15-17 yrs.)

The analysis of Performatrin Ultra and Go Natural are similar and both of equal quality food sources. The Orijen Adult formula is also very-very good (grain free) and all are the same price. That being about $77 a 30 lb. bag. I would have preferred to have gone with the Orijen but the hour trip was too much and the price ?

I should be hearing back from the Nutritionist student this week. She is a friend of my Daughter. They play Rugby together and therefore have a tight bond and I am sure I will get a fare assessment.

If her analysis indicates that the Performatrin is a thousand percent better than the PC brand... then I will be hard pressed not to go back and try the Orijen Adult formula and stick to about 2.75 - 3 cups a day. For another 3 months anyway.
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  #10  
Old 01-20-2010, 02:35 PM
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Re: President's Choice First Nutrition Dog Food

I just checked the Orijen page...

20-35 kg/45-75 lb = (Active)275-375g/2¾-3¾ cups -or-(Not so)200-275 g/1¾-2½ cups
35-50 kg/75-110 lb = (Active)375-500g/3¾-5 cups -or-(Not so)275-400 g/2½-3½ cups

Then I checked the PC and Performatrin...

Orijen = 3950 Calories per kg.... 470 cal/cup = 53,325 cal/bag
Performatrin = 3520 Calories per kg. 350cal/cup = 47,520 cal/bag
PC = 3900 Calories per kg. ... 395 cal/cup = 52,650 cal/bag
Go Natural = 4940 per kg. ... 570 cal/cup = 66,690 cal/bag

They all come in 30 lb. bags or 13.5 kg.
All recommend about 2.75 cups per day lets say 3.

Orijen 3 cups = 1410 cal/day
Performatrin =1056 cal/day
PC = 1185 cal/day
Go = 1710 cal/day

I was told by several Vets that a pup should be getting about 1200-1400 cal/day. Round it out at 1300.

Orijen = 41 days ($75/bag) = $1.83/day (3cups) = $0.07/cal
Performatrin = 36.5 days ($75/bag) = $2.06/day (3cups) = $0.12/cal
PC = 40.5 days ($45/bag) = $1.11/day (3cups) = $0.06/cal
Go = 51.3 days ($80/bag) = $1.56/day (3cups) = $0.08/cal

So by finally doing the math, by quality and cost... Orijen comes out ahead. There is no doubt that Orijen is a much higher quality food than any other brand (Canada or otherwise) but the Pet Valu brand really gets you in the pocket.

So buying by the calorie or the weight... I can now see the difference. For a few cents a day... you can feed your pup the best... if you count the calories.
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  #11  
Old 01-20-2010, 03:42 PM
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Post Re: President's Choice First Nutrition Dog Food

Glad that you did your homework.
Honestly, I don't need a PHD in dog nutrition to know, that almost all foods recommend way too much food on the back of the bag. It's a guideline and all of the dogs I've had of my own (probably 20 in the last 35 years) and all of the dogs I've fostered (probably over a 100?)...I have never followed the directions on the back of the bag. The companies want you to go through more food...so you buy another bag sooner.

I have a 5 year old Rottweiler that is 115 lbs and he eats 2 cups of Orijen per day...and he get's two one mile walks per day, and numerous rambles over our 50 acre country property. If he get's anything else added (raw turkey neck,etc.) I cut back on the kibble.

I also have a 9 month old female that is around 80 lbs, and she is VERY active. Probably a couple of hours of exercise, training playing per day...she is eating 3 cups of Acana Prairie (the grainfree). I've cut her back now...because she is not growing as much anymore.

The best way to know if you are overfeeding is by their stools. If a dog is having frequent, looser stools...then you are probably overfeeding. If you cut back by even 1/4 cup at each meal...often you can see a difference.

I feed hundreds of dogs per year because I own a small boarding kennel. Owner's bring their own food with feeding directions. Many of the dogs are overweight....owners are feeding too much. Even if it does not seem much to the owner.

The best way to feed is to use your eyes and hands...if the dog starts getting chunky and it's hard to feel ribs...cut back. If dog is getting ribby...then add another 1/2 cup per feeding. Don't need PHD's....most of this stuff is very simple.

I would also be curious to know who makes the Performatrin food.

Gina
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At the Bridge:
Bruno
Teddy
China
Duncan (Rescue) RIP April22-14
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  #12  
Old 01-20-2010, 07:06 PM
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Re: President's Choice First Nutrition Dog Food

We had Rotti's before. Loved the country and needed little exercise. But fed them mainly table scraps and cheap food. Lived to 16yrs.

Acana has a little lower protein count than Orijen but about the same price.

Performatrin Ultra is a family company in Toronto now distributed out of Markham Piton Distributing for Pet-Valu. That is the most expensive per calorie.

I just got info back from PC First Nutrition.
**"President’s Choice 1st Nutrition Chicken & Brown Rice Dog Food does not contain Menadione or Ethoxyquin. The source of Vitamin K is K1.**

Our pup never seemed to put weight on and was always active.

Last edited by Patinka; 01-20-2010 at 09:47 PM. Reason: removed pictures
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