Rottweiler Discussion Forums

Go Back   Rottweiler Discussion Forums > Rottweiler > Nutrition and Grooming
Did you forget your password? Reset it here


Nutrition and Grooming Cleaning teeth, clipping nails got you stumped? Should you feed natural or commercial? Here's the place to post your comments and get your answers.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-14-2009, 11:43 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Grand Rapids
Growing too fast on puppy food

I overheard some lady saying dont feed your puppy large breed puppy food because it has high protein and causes the bones to grow faster than ligaments/tendons. Is there any truth to this? i am about to switch over to better food. my rott is about 5 months and is currently eating eukanuba LB puppy. i read somewhere in a thread that it was the calcium/phosphorus? ratio but i cant find it and the calcium content is not always listed on the bag.

also what should i be looking for protein/fat/etc in a food now? i know to look at the first 5 ingredients (no grain) and have read many suggestions for brands.
Reply With Quote
 
  #2  
Old 10-14-2009, 02:38 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sellersburg, Indiana
Images: 31
Re: Growing too fast on puppy food

It seems to depend on the food your planning to switch to. I for instance use the Innova brand food and it has been recommended here to use the adult forumula rather than the LBP. However, I have read other's posting about feeding their young'ens Orijen LBP and they don't seem to get the same suggestions to switch to an adult version of Orijen.

Now, I understand the reasoning as explained here concerning the Calcium/Phosphorus ration, but I have also been to an animal nutritionist (Susan Lauten, Phd) who has recently started consulting in my area and she highly recommended that I put my rottie back on the LBP version of Innova rather than the Adult version.

I must admit it adds to the confusion on the subject when you get advice here from long standing Rottie owners who's dogs are apparently healthy and yet you are told they are wrong by an animal nutritionist who's advice your supposed to be able to depend on concerning matters of canine nutrition. Her credentials also appear to be very good, so whom do you trust in the end?
Reply With Quote


  #3  
Old 10-14-2009, 05:33 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Grand Rapids
Re: Growing too fast on puppy food

well some of the premium foods have up to 16% more protein than what i am currently using which seems like alot so i am hesitant to switch.
Reply With Quote


  #4  
Old 10-14-2009, 08:36 PM
brunie's mom's Avatar
One of the Old Folks
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Ontario, Canada
Images: 4
Post Re: Growing too fast on puppy food

Innova does have some grains, and is way less protein then Orijen. The reason that LBP Orijen is recommended is because it is one of the few grainless, high protein foods that can be fed to a large breed puppy. LBP Orijen has the right calcium/phosphorus ratio that a puppy needs.

Most top quality adult foods, can be fed to a large breed puppy. LBP is just a new fad, and marketing scheme...only came out in the last few years. If you compare and adult food to a LBP they are almost the same.

Here are the ingredients (first 5) and nutritional analysis for Innova Large Breed Puppy: Turkey, Chicken, Chicken Meal, Barley, Brown Rice

Crude Protein (min) 24 %
Crude Fat (min) 12 %
Crude Fiber (max) 4 %
Moisture (max) 10 %
Linoleic Acid (Omega-6 Fatty Acid) (min) 2.5 %
Calcium (max) 0.9 %
Phosphorus (min) 0.7 %
Vitamin E (min) 300 IU/kg
Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C) (min) 500 mg/kg
Omega-3 Fatty Acids (min) 0.5 %
Total Microorganisms (min) 90000000 CFU/lb
DHA plus EPA 0.1 %

Calorie Content:
3,566 kcal/kg (102 g = 1 cup)
367 kcal/cup (3.6 oz = 1 cup)

Here are the ingredients for Adult Innova (green bag): Turkey, Chicken, Chicken Meal, Barley, Brown Rice

Crude Protein (min) 24 %
Crude Fat (min) 14 %
Crude Fiber (max) 2.5 %
Moisture (max) 10 %
Calcium 1.23%
Phosphorus 0.91%
Linoleic Acid (Omega-6 Fatty Acid) (min) 2.5 %
Vitamin E (min) 300 IU/kg
Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C) (min) 500 mg/kg
Omega-3 Fatty Acids (min) 0.6 %
Total Microorganisms (min) 90000000 CFU/lb
DHA plus EPA 0.1 %

Calorie Content:
3,694 kcal/kg (159 g = 1 cup)
504 kcal/cup (5.6 oz = 1 cup

The only thing that is a bit different is that the Adult food is a bit higher in fat, and higher in calories....which makes it cheaper to feed.
The LBP has more fibre...so more pooping...and more food has to be fed.

The calcium/phos ratios in the Adult food are close to 1:1 ratio which is what a LBP puppy needs.

As long as you don't overfeed a growing puppy and keeping it on the slim side...there is no problem feeding an a excellent quality adult food.

As far as these "experts" recommending LBP, I would rather listen to breeders that have raised many litters and know their lines and how they grow. Vets often recommend crap food like Science Diet, Iams and Pedigree...and we know those are terrible foods.

Gina
__________________
~~~


(Baxter)Weka's Knight'N' Shinin Armor CGN TT HIC
(Jemma) Eirian's First Class Jem HIC CGN

* * * * * *
At the Bridge:
Bruno
Teddy
China
Duncan (Rescue) RIP April22-14
Reply With Quote


  #5  
Old 10-14-2009, 08:44 PM
Novice Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Santa Margarita/California
Images: 12
Re: Growing too fast on puppy food

Which is why I feed raw meaty bones for the most part.
Reply With Quote


  #6  
Old 10-14-2009, 09:38 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sellersburg, Indiana
Images: 31
Re: Growing too fast on puppy food

Quote:
Originally Posted by brunie's mom View Post
As far as these "experts" recommending LBP, I would rather listen to breeders that have raised many litters and know their lines and how they grow. Vets often recommend crap food like Science Diet, Iams and Pedigree...and we know those are terrible foods.

Gina
Gina,

The reason I mentioned it is because it's often mentioned here that most vets get very little real nutritional education while going their vet school. The fact that many suggest kibble like Science Diet is used to illustrate this lack of indepth nutritional information.

Wanting some further information, we decided to get a consultation with an actual animal nutritionist whom you would assume has had the appropriate schooling and real world applicable knowledge concerning what is and isn't appropriate for canines of whatever age range. It's conflicting information from such a source that can and did lead to my own confusion on this very issue that jtrain63 brought up even after reading various threads on this topic here.

I have no reason to doubt any of the advice given here, after all it's apparent that the practice does happen and there are plenty of obviously healthy Rottweilers running around. But at what point do you simply say "I'm not going to listen to the Doctors or Nutritionists and just take the advice of the obviously knowledgable, but yet anonymous, posters on the Rottie forum"?

Will feeding Innova LBP kibble harm your Rottweiler compared to feeding it the adult version? While the 1:1 ratio is acknowledged as the optimal level to strive for, is the difference between the Adult and LBP levels enough that noticable differences occur or potentially harmful effects evident?

Does the levels approach closer parity in LBP with the inclusion of additional supplimentation to their diet from various treats, scraps that might be fed to them or anything else that enters their diets aside from pure kibble bringing it closer to that seen in the Innova adult? And does this approach the same sort of "evening out" of nutrients as discribed in the theory behind feeding your canine a purely raw diet using either the Barf or Predator models?

I want to be clear that these questions aren't meant as an attempt at an argument, but an honest attempt at understanding. The science of canine nutrition has obviously moved beyond the simple idea of picking up a bag of kibble at the grocery store. You have camps that advocate Raw, Raw+Kibble and just straight Kibble with occasional supplimentation in the form of scraps or what your dog may get in the way of treats. There are the Vets, and in my case an actual nutritionist, who advocate one thing that is then contradicted by breeders and owners of long standing here.

Is one group wrong and the other right, or is it a matter of degrees of right in this particular case? And are the difference significant enough that I absolutely MUST get this right as far as this particular kibble is concerned?

*I understand this was long winded, but I needed to get to explain where my thoughts are at the moment on this topic. I apologize if this is considered hijacking jtrain63's thread, but I think it's within the sphere of the question he (or she) asked.*
Reply With Quote


  #7  
Old 10-14-2009, 10:39 PM
Novice Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Santa Margarita/California
Images: 12
Re: Growing too fast on puppy food

I empathize with you as the conflicts involving diets for dogs can make a person go quite mad. My sense of it is that as long as you feed the best food that you are able, all is good. Whatever you add in the way of raw and or table scraps, so much the better.
But I am speaking as a person who has usually had one or two dogs at a time for the past 35 years, not the numbers that some of the breeders or better informed people may have.
I feed raw for the most part, not BARF, which makes it easy to stay out of the "best dog food" debates. When I do use kibble I stick with Evo.
Considering some of the terrible foods that some people get away with feeding and yet seemingly end up with healthy dogs (for the most part) you need to take some of this dog food confusion with a grain of salt IMHO.
Innova is good food, add some raw and you would be good to go in my book.
This really isn't brain surgery, although you wouldn't know it by reading some accounts.
Personally I get a headache looking at all of the dog food comparisons.
As much as you obviously care, your dog is in good hands. Good luck.
Reply With Quote


  #8  
Old 10-14-2009, 10:43 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Grand Rapids
Re: Growing too fast on puppy food

Gina, not sure how you did your calculations but would i be correct in assuming that a 33lb bag of innova would give me an equivalent of a 46 lb bag of eukanuba. i just used the kcal/cup (innova: 504 eukanaba: 361.96) ratio multiplied by the weight of the bag. im about to head to bed so i didnt feel like thinking anymore in depth so if thats wrong please point me in the right direction and i will recalculate tomorrow.
Reply With Quote


  #9  
Old 10-15-2009, 01:04 AM
moondog's Avatar
Valued Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Woodland Hills CA/USA
Images: 80
Re: Growing too fast on puppy food

Quote:
Originally Posted by brunie's mom View Post
The calcium/phos ratios in the Adult food are close to 1:1 ratio which is what a LBP puppy needs.
Actually, the 1:1 ratio is the recommendation for adult dogs, not puppies. The recommendation for puppies is 1.3:1 (calcium:phosphorus), which both those foods are very close to - Innova LBP is 1.3:1 and Innova Adult is 1.35:1 - so either is fine for puppies.

The higher calcium is not an issue for adult dogs, as adult bodies simply excrete excess calcium, so neither food is a problem for adult dogs either, as far as the calcium:phosphorus ration is concerned.
Reply With Quote


  #10  
Old 10-15-2009, 08:41 AM
brunie's mom's Avatar
One of the Old Folks
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Ontario, Canada
Images: 4
Post Re: Growing too fast on puppy food

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtrain63 View Post
Gina, not sure how you did your calculations but would i be correct in assuming that a 33lb bag of innova would give me an equivalent of a 46 lb bag of eukanuba. i just used the kcal/cup (innova: 504 eukanaba: 361.96) ratio multiplied by the weight of the bag. im about to head to bed so i didnt feel like thinking anymore in depth so if thats wrong please point me in the right direction and i will recalculate tomorrow.
LOL!! math I'm not good at.
If you figure it out as cost per serving it works out cheaper also. If you need to only feed 3 cups of Innova, and 4 cups of Eukanuba....it costs about the same per serving. I know that many people are shocked at the sticker price per bag of food....but if you only have to buy one bag of the good stuff, and buy two bags of the poor quality food....there really is no difference in price.

As far as calcium/phos ratios for puppies...all of my old books say 1:1 is the ideal ratio...or as close to that as you can get....maybe the guidelines have changed a bit? I agree the Adult Innova has good calcium/phos ratio for a large breed puppy....and the food is fine.
__________________
~~~


(Baxter)Weka's Knight'N' Shinin Armor CGN TT HIC
(Jemma) Eirian's First Class Jem HIC CGN

* * * * * *
At the Bridge:
Bruno
Teddy
China
Duncan (Rescue) RIP April22-14
Reply With Quote


  #11  
Old 10-15-2009, 03:57 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Grand Rapids
Re: Growing too fast on puppy food

Quote:
Originally Posted by brunie's mom View Post
LOL!! math I'm not good at.
If you figure it out as cost per serving it works out cheaper also. If you need to only feed 3 cups of Innova, and 4 cups of Eukanuba....it costs about the same per serving. I know that many people are shocked at the sticker price per bag of food....but if you only have to buy one bag of the good stuff, and buy two bags of the poor quality food....there really is no difference in price.

As far as calcium/phos ratios for puppies...all of my old books say 1:1 is the ideal ratio...or as close to that as you can get....maybe the guidelines have changed a bit? I agree the Adult Innova has good calcium/phos ratio for a large breed puppy....and the food is fine.
i went to the store just to check prices. were you referring to the adult large breed or just adult dog...both bags appeared to be green.
Reply With Quote


  #12  
Old 10-15-2009, 05:57 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sellersburg, Indiana
Images: 31
Re: Growing too fast on puppy food

Quote:
Originally Posted by moondog View Post
Actually, the 1:1 ratio is the recommendation for adult dogs, not puppies. The recommendation for puppies is 1.3:1 (calcium:phosphorus), which both those foods are very close to - Innova LBP is 1.3:1 and Innova Adult is 1.35:1 - so either is fine for puppies.

The higher calcium is not an issue for adult dogs, as adult bodies simply excrete excess calcium, so neither food is a problem for adult dogs either, as far as the calcium:phosphorus ration is concerned.
While reading up on the formula to determine daily caloric needs using RER (Resting Energy Requirements) x activity level, I kept coming across a range of 1.2:1 and 1.3:1, but those numbers were based on a study done with great danes which are actually classified at giant breed. But since they don't make GBP food...
Reply With Quote


  #13  
Old 10-15-2009, 06:06 PM
moondog's Avatar
Valued Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Woodland Hills CA/USA
Images: 80
Re: Growing too fast on puppy food

Quote:
Originally Posted by brunie's mom View Post
As far as calcium/phos ratios for puppies...all of my old books say 1:1 is the ideal ratio...or as close to that as you can get....maybe the guidelines have changed a bit?
You're working off the NRC 1985 guidelines. When the National Research Council completed their 2003 study, they adjusted the calcium/phosphorus daily requirement for puppies to .54g calcium:.43g phosphorus (per kg of body weight - the exact ratio is 1.25:1).

Interesting side note - I googled to double check the numbers since I'm at work, and the last post I gave this info in on Rott Dot Net was the first hit on google!!
Reply With Quote


  #14  
Old 10-15-2009, 06:20 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sellersburg, Indiana
Images: 31
Re: Growing too fast on puppy food

Thank you for the clarification Moondog. I feel better now about heeding the recommendations of the nutritionist I consulted who suggested putting my rottie back on the Innova LBP.
Reply With Quote


  #15  
Old 10-15-2009, 06:21 PM
moondog's Avatar
Valued Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Woodland Hills CA/USA
Images: 80
Re: Growing too fast on puppy food

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard33 View Post
While reading up on the formula to determine daily caloric needs using RER (Resting Energy Requirements) x activity level, I kept coming across a range of 1.2:1 and 1.3:1, but those numbers were based on a study done with great danes which are actually classified at giant breed. But since they don't make GBP food...
The National Research Council studies on nutrient requirements of dogs are based on physical activity, stage in life, how nutrients are metabolized in the bodies of dogs, indications of nutrient deficiency, and diseases related to poor nutrition - because those are the major factors that influence nutrient needs. It is not a breed specific study, it is dog specific.
Reply With Quote


Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Is he growing too fast? justlove'em Puppy Development 16 06-16-2009 01:03 PM
He's growing up so fast... MonicaBH Puppy Development 0 10-09-2006 09:59 PM
Puppy Growing too fast???? anna30 Puppy Development 4 08-25-2005 01:38 PM
growing too fast? Staggers Nutrition and Grooming 7 02-23-2000 11:22 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:51 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.

The thoughts expressed in the interviews and/or commentary contained within these forums are solely those of the individual(s) providing them and do not represent and/or reflect the opinions of Rottweiler Dot Net, it's parent site or it's affiliates.

Copyright © 1998 - 2014 Rottweiler Discussion Forums-All Rights Reserved - No part of this site may be reproduced without permission.