how much is too much of a good thing

[beanthng]

I've been reading tons on the nutrition posts because recently I've thought of changing my dogs food. Go figure, he's on Canadae. Alot of what I'm reading is the reason I came to read in the beginning. He just doesnt seem to be getting what he needs from it. We've had one bag of the new formula and like others, he just isnt enjoying like he should AND I'm concerned he's just not getting enough out of it. I've spent hours researching new foods and reading ingredients and such and I just dont know what he should be getting. I really like the EVO, Orijen and Timberwolf. All are very high in protein and thats my concern. Also the calc/phos levels. I dont want to switch to something that could be too much.

He is 1 yr old on 9/11. He weighs 95 pounds but looks thin to me. He has this big huge head and he looks on the surface ok, but he's the leanest male I've ever owned. His parents were big. His father huge. (I say huge but mean big and beautiful, not giant and fat). I just want to give him the best. He does work in obedience and gets lots of exercise in play and such. I'm thinking he needs more fat and protein. (basically more calories) but I dont want to OVER do it.

I could use a little help. How do I know when too much isnt good. What ingredients should I really watch. I would really like a grain free food but am concerned to put him on EVO too young. I do plan on tracking and Schutzhund with him. Possibly even herding. For now we're continuing on the obedience and beginning some of the phases at home and looking for places to go for the tracking and schuthund and even herding. I want him to be well rounded so he'll need the proper energy and caloric intake etc.

[BrewskisMommy]

Are you considering raw when he is a little older? Brewski is 8 months and I am also looking for a good kibble to feed until he is a little older and I switch to raw. I've tried Innova (itchy skin), Canidae (loose stools, eye boogers), California Natural Herring/Sweet Potato(loose stools)...I'm considering ordering Orijen online since I can't find any locally. I'll be interested to hear what you end up with!

[brutus'mother]

I feed the raw prey model but if I had to feed kibble again I would feed Orijen large breed formula to a pup until 18 months and then switch to the Orijen adult formula.
The high protein should not be a concern, but the CA/Ph ratios are very important in a growing pup. Good luck!

[beanthng]

I've thought of raw but it just wouldnt fit my lifestyle. I work at a kennel and some are raw fed and most not, but I want a kibble that is as close to raw healthwise as I can get. I'm afraid the Evo would be too much on his system. I'm leaning towards Timberwolf it seems. I just want to be sure that the things I'm looking for in a food are exactly what I should be looking for and not giving too much of a good things etc.

[mjfish]

I'm not sure I understand why you think EVO would be too much on his system? In what respect(s)?

The majority of a Rott's growth bone-wise is done by 1 yr of age. From 1 until around 3, he will fill out and fill in so to speak. 95lbs at 1 yr sounds good to me, and that's what my boy was too, although your pup may be taller than mine was.

I am currently feeding EVO, and I did see a noticeable increase in energy once I started feeding it, which I was actually glad to see. I would think any of the 3 you listed would be fine to try and see which one he does best on. Many of the other super premium brands are starting to create grain-free formulas, so there are quite a few choices now (that being said, not all are created equal ).

[beanthng]

I just put 2 pics of him in my gallery. One from up top and the other from the side. I guess the protein levels arent such a big deal. I like his energy levels. He's always had alot, but it works for us because he loves to work and be with me and be active which fits us. The cal/ph levels do worry me. How much should he be getting? I believe he's as tall as he's going to get. He's been this height (27") since 8 months old. He's just a hair shy of it actually. He hasnt gained any weight at all in the last close to 2 months. His energy level is still good, although he tires easily and needs to rest which I find disturbing because he's so young.
I know some may be the heat here. It hasnt been oppressive but early in the summer when it was, he couldnt walk 1/2 mile without laying in the shade for about 1 full minute to cool down. I live on a peninsula on a lake and I walk him 1/4 mile to the beach and we let him walk in the water and cool off and then continue our walk back home. We play outside a few times aday, which consists of running with the ball or just plain romping. We do that walk about 3 times a day. I also work him outside for only about 5-10 minutes each time, at regular intervals, up to 4 times a day.
His energy seems fine but tires easily. Ok I already said that. Given that info and the pics of him, is he too thin. he is also on a vitamin called Nuvet Plus, required by his breeder for 2 years during his "warranty" period.
He's happy and sweet and LOVES to be working or busy or playing but outside he cant do it long periods. (we have central air inside and no problems playing there) I dont want to hurt his intestinal system or kidneys, etc. what levels of cal/ph are the max for him? I know this is long winded but I'm really at a crunch time for getting him food and don't want to get that new formula of Canidae. The kennel where I purchase it is even thinking of discontinuing it because of this formula change and problems they've heard.

[sweetlee]

I don't think your dog looks too thin at all. It's kind of hard to tell because he isn't standing in his pictures.
My dog is 25 1/2 at the shoulders and also weighs right at 95 lbs. He is on the lean side and I plan to keep him that way. I adopted him from a shelter and he no doubt came from a BYB, so keeping him on the lean side is a defense against hip problems.
Is your dog neutered? If so he may not bulk up so much as we think of the pictures of champion male rotties. Dodge was neutered before his first birthday, and he doesn't have a big stocky build either. He is 2 1/2 now. I think that males usually fill out at 2-3 years, but without the testosterone they can be more of a slight build.
I can't really advise you on grain free foods, I use California Natural Lamb and Rice but my boy has a sensitive tummy and is prone to mushy poops. He was starved as a baby and at one year, when I adopted him only weighed 70 some lbs, and this was after he had been rescued and the lady at the shelter fed him for two months.
I have heard the Orijen is wonderful food, I would love to use it but since my dog's tummy is so sensitive I use what works for his system. He was on Canidae Lamb and Rice for a very long time but like everyone else, the formula change was horrible on him so I have switched.

[mjfish]

Originally Posted by beanthng

I just put 2 pics of him in my gallery. One from up top and the other from the side.

I don't think your pictures have posted yet...the one I see is him laying down and it's hard to tell from that.

Originally Posted by beanthng

I know some may be the heat here. It hasnt been oppressive but early in the summer when it was, he couldnt walk 1/2 mile without laying in the shade for about 1 full minute to cool down. I live on a peninsula on a lake and I walk him 1/4 mile to the beach and we let him walk in the water and cool off and then continue our walk back home. We play outside a few times aday, which consists of running with the ball or just plain romping. We do that walk about 3 times a day. I also work him outside for only about 5-10 minutes each time, at regular intervals, up to 4 times a day.
His energy seems fine but tires easily.

So, let me see if I have this right: 3 walks x 1/2 mi each, so 1.5 miles of walking minimum, plus walking/playing in the water, plus playing ball/romping a few times a day, plus 4 OB sessions/day -- is that correct? If so, I think that's a lot! And if you are doing all this outside, some of which is probably during the heat of the day, I can understand why he's tired! Put on a black fur coat and do all of that with him and see how you feel!

As far as the cal:phos ratio goes, you want it to be close to 1:1 for their bone growth stage, which is usually up to a year. After that, they're ok. EVO actually states that it's appropriate for all life stages, however as large breed owners, we know that it's not the best for a growing large breed puppy -- small breeds it would be fine for a puppy -- so you really don't need to worry about damage to internal systems/organs. If you are that concerned, you can try the Orijen Large Breed Puppy formula.

[beanthng]

Ok, pics havent loaded yet. The one of him laying down is when he was 6 months I think. His head is a big one, the rest just hasnt caught up yet. I dont think he looks starving, just not as filled out as he should be.

I'm glad to hear that after one year, I dont have to worry so much about the cal/pho ratios, because that would have made my decision impossible without some serious input.

Like I said, I dont have a problem with his energy level, its high and we like it that way, however, he has no endurance is I guess, how I should have put that. Even in the air conditioning, I doubt very much he could do a tread mill very long. I have yet to try that one. I guess nutritionally speaking he has received enough up until now, however, I don't want to try the new formula too long and have issues. I'd rather be proactive and switch to something now, PLUS he is a tad lean in my eyes. 27" is pretty tall and I think most of his weight is his bone because his head is huge and his limbs look thick, just not alot of bulk. I understand he's a year but even taking that into consideration. Hopefully when the pics get up, someone else will see what I do and I'm not imagining it.

I don't want an overweight dog by any means, but I want him to look like he FEELS well. His coat has always been so shiny, he does get lots and lots of eye buggers now, his stools are what others have called, "soft and puffy". He is going to be a working boy so I guess now is a great time to give him that extra he needs to keep up. His brain wants to go constantly.

When someone else typed it, it sounded like he was pretty active didnt it?? He is, but it's not me forcing him to do these things. He constantly wants to go, he just cant go for too long without that rest. Shouldnt he have more endurance even considering the heat. We do alot of the running and romping around 10-11 pm when it's cooler, because he doesnt like the heat. I try to accomodate him when I can.

Ok another long one, I guess I'm having more difficulty getting this all out than I had thought.

[mamakimpossible]

I feed mine EVO. However, I combine it with home-cooked foods like more chicken or beef and maybe some rice and/or potato, shredded raw carrots, plain yogurt, cottage cheese, an egg etc. Or if I'm super pressed for time, combine some Nutro Herring & Sweet Potato. I alter diet to the amount of work/play she has been and will be doing.

After adding EVO, her energy level went to awesome! More stamina too. Stools are firm.

The heat really does a number on all of us. I try to do most activity early or late so the heat doesn't make as much of an impact.

Dog's bodies don't need as much "fuel" during the summer months as they do during the winter because their bodies aren't using nearly as much enery to stay warm. So, appetite might be slightly decreased (I think you mentioned his not being as interested in food).

The calcium phosphorus ratio is important for our big pups, so keep an eye out in my opinion until your boy is about 18 months. If you can find a good food that is for large breed puppies and it agrees with him (stool wise), stick to it. He's so young and still needs to fill out. I wouldn't worry too much about if he looks too thin or not (as long as your vet hasn't mentioned his needing to gain more weight). He may just be going through a lean time. Looking at his pictures, he is not skinny or underweight in my opinion.

You are lucky he isn't overweight as I have seen so many overweight Rottweilers.