diet

[Lynnepelfrey]

I have a question on the Barf diet. I did a search and didnt really find a detailed description of it but it sounds like you feed "people" food to your rotts. I thought people food was bad for dogs. My male has a very sensative stomach and gets sick easily so I would like to find something to feed him that would help. we used to give him treats or people food sometimes but then noticed he didnt feel to good afterward or he would have really bad gas.

In the search I also saw where some people were having shots split up. Why is that?

Lynne

[AngelBunny]

Lynnepelfrey:

BARF = bones & raw food. Yes, "people food" in terms of RAW chicken, turkey, beef, eggs (ground up with the shells), fruits, and veggies, including various supplements, among other meats.

We feed modified BARF; there are members here who feed BARF. I know they'll respond to you.

What are you feeding your dog now?

[Lynnepelfrey]

Purina Dog Chow.....The vet said that was good for his stomach problems but after reading all the posts about different diets I am thinking I should try something else. But why have I always heard that feeding dogs people food will basically make them die sooner.

[AngelBunny]

Lynnepelfrey:

I'm sorry to say but the advice given you by your vet as to what to feed your boy is another example that vets aren't good sources of info where dog food is concerned. As surprising as it may sound, vets don't know alot about good vs. less than desirable dog food, and as much as I like our vet, I wouldn't turn to her for info about pet food.

If you read thru all the postings in Nutrition and Grooming (including the Archives), you'll learn a ton.

Where have you "always heard that feeding dogs people will basically make them die sooner?" That's baloney.

[Lynnepelfrey]

I have had dogs most of my life and I can remember even as a kid the vet telling my parents not to feed them people food. I guess it just stuck with me. Since Evan has stomach problems I assumed that people food might aggravate it and have stuck with just the Dog Chow since. no treats....poor thing:( everytime I give him treats he ends up feeling bad.

[AngelBunny]

Lynnepelfrey:

Your vet probably would have helped you--and poor Evan--more if he or she had talked to you about IBD (imflammatory bowel disease).

Briefly, IBD is a group of diseases of the small & large intestine characterized by chronic & protracted diarrhea, malabsorption, weight loss, anemia & malnutrition. All IBDs are treatable, but seldom cured. (From Dog Owner's Home Veterinary Handbook)

The Forum has several members whose dogs are extremely sensitive to what they eat & their owners have gone thru much to figure out what their dogs can and can't eat. I know these members will have good advice for you, once they realize your Evan has a tender tummy. It must be ghastly for these poor dogs to be fed a diet--with the best of intentions by their loving owners--that makes them sick.

You've come to the right place for helpful suggestions.

[Homerhomer]

By saying people food do you mean table scraps. If that's the case than I understand why this my not be good for your dog. Table scraps include fried foods, gravy, pasta with spicy tomatoe souce etc etc etc. When you talk about raw food (raw meaty bones and veggies) that's a totally different story, infact many (if not most) will tell you that within days after switching from kibble to barf diet they notice that their dogs fart much less, which is a good indication that the food agress with most dogs very well.
To start a diet like that you would probably want to start with raw chicken (necks and backs), after few days if the dogs has no problems start with veggie mix. Start with one mushed veggie, pumpkin could be a good start (regulates the stomach), then add another veggie an so on.
If you are interested in this type of diet I would suggest you to get a book by Dr Billinghurst "Give your dog a bone" (very easy to read), also go to www.smartgroups.com and find BARFERS mailing list and keep asking questions, we are here to help.
If you decide to stick with kibble, definetly throw away dog chow. Brands like that have plenty of byproducts and corn that doesn't sit well with many dogs and causes many allergies and stomach upsets. There are many exellent brands of kibble like canidae, wellness,solid gold etc. They are more expensive than dog chow but you feed much less, your dog may be feeling better and your vet bills should be smaller. IMO BARF diet is the best, if you do the shopping properly it will cost you less than good kibble and if you have a freezer you can make enough for the whole month so it not time consuming.
Good Luck

[Barbara Surplus]

Originally posted by Lynnepelfrey
Purina Dog Chow.....The vet said that was good for his stomach problems but after reading all the posts about different diets I am thinking I should try something else. But why have I always heard that feeding dogs people food will basically make them die sooner.

Lynne, Angelbunny's right - most vets know very little about animal nutrition and they learn most of what they know from the pet food companies. I lost my beautiful boy to cancer a while ago and decided I needed to educate myself on the hazards of pet food. It's an eye-opener to say the least. There are some really good kibbles on the market but most grocery store brands are full of toxic chemicals, by-products, waste materials, euthanized pets, and on and on. It's likely that your boy's stomach sensitivity comes from the poor quality ingredients in the kibble he's eating.

When my boy became ill, I switched my two dogs overnight to BARF and we've never looked back. He had a perpetually sensitive stomach and in retrospect we realized that he most certainly had an aversion to his diet.

The most wonderful book I've ever read on animal health is "The Nature of Animal Healing" by Dr. Martin Goldstein. I strongly suggest you read it if you can, sooner than later, as it will give you a picture of the whole dog and what they need to thrive. Vaccines are discussed at length,as is diet, as well as the complications that can arise from many of the pharmaceuticals that are used in the veterinary profession.

Search the web for BARF - there are many wonderful sites out there for you to read and learn.

My suggestion to you would be to take your dog off the Purina immediately and give him whole, raw, natural foods. Or at least a premium quality kibble.

Best of luck. I wish your boy the best of health.
Barbara

[Lynnepelfrey]

Thanks so much for all the advise! Can someone give me an example of what you might feed a 95lb rott that needs to maintain and a 80lb rott that needs to lose about 15lbs. I am planning on getting the book that details the diet but have to wait until I get paid next week. What kind of veggies? Do I need to take the skin off of chicken? I worry about them choking on the chicken bones. Does anyone have a problem with that? Again I am going to get the book I just dont want to keep feeding them something that is hurting them in the long run even if it is just for a week. Thanks again for all the help.,

[Homerhomer]

Ok, my 2 cents.
Since your dogs have sensitive stomachs I would hold of veggies for about a week or so, let's not push everything at once. I would start with raw meaty bones alone. How much, well everyone asks the same question, the problem is that this is not possible to answer. It depends on the dog. But to give you an idea you may start with 1.5-2 pounds a day for the one that has to maintain weight and about a pound for the one that has to loose weight. Than you adjust as you go depending one wheather they loose, gain or keep it steady. I would take the skin and fat off (especially for the one that has to loos weight), excess fat may cause upset stomach. You may keep it on afterwords. I sometimes take it off, sometimes keep it on, it depends of fatty it is. Once they are adjusted to chicken necks and bones, you can introduce veggies. For dogs with sensitive stomachs you may wanna start with one veggie and than introduce more as you go (just like with babies). Pumpkin may be a good one to introduce first, it regulates stomach functions, than banana etc. Many times the problem arises when dog's don't want to eat veggies. You can try to mix it with canned tuna, ground beef, offal, jogurt (very good for their tummies). I have to go fishing now, and I could go on and on. You just keep on asking.
Here's the list of veggies/fruit to help you with some choices, please read the end, some veggies shouldn't be given on daily basis all the time (formatting is a bit off, sorry about that)ooops, just got a message that this post is too long so I have to post half of the list in the next post:

Acorn squash – very high in vitamin A, also supplies potassium and generally
higher in carbohydrates than summer squashes; soothes the stomach and
protects the spleen.

Alfalfa – contains vitamins A, B, C, E, K, and U; rich in magnesium, trace
elements, biotin, essential fatty acids, pantothenic acid, pyroxidine,
phosphorus, magnesium, iron, selenium, and zinc.

Apple – Is a bladder cleanser; aids in intestinal infections, inflammation of
the colon; aids in detoxifying metals, protects against radiation therapy;
stabilizes blood sugar; apples contain 84% pure water, carbohydrates,
protein, minerals, vitamins A, B & C, and are high in potassium, iron and
many other nutrients.

Asparagus – stimulates kidney and liver function; protects against cancer;
stimulates the immune function; high in vitamins A, B-complex and C, as well
as potassium, manganese and iron; carotene, selenium; and rutin which
contributes to a strong capillary system.

Banana – high in potassium and vitamin C; feeds the good bacteria in the
colon; good for intestinal disturbances and diarrhea.

Beet greens – very high in nutrients especially iron and calcium; good for
blood disorders, liver function and the flow of bile.

Beets – aid lymphatic function; aid in gall bladder and liver function; aid
in digestion; builds red blood cells; full of calcium, phosphorus, sodium,
potassium, iron, and magnesium; vitamin A, B-complex and C; also contain high
amounts of amino acids.

[Homerhomer]

Blueberries -- the high amounts of manganese make this very good for many
disorders; the blue pigment is thought to be a powerful liver protector for
any patient undergoing radiation or chemotherapy.

Broccoli – lowers the risk of cancer, primarily of the colon, esophagus,
lung, prostrate, oral cavity and stomach; experiments using broccoli reveal
the sulforaphane it contains to be the most powerful natural chemical for
stopping the growth of tumours. Broccoli is high in cancer antidotes and
blocks cell mutations, which foreshadow cancer.

Cabbage – kills bacteria and viruses, prevents cancer, stimulates the immune
system; within cabbage are chemicals called indoles, that block cancer
formation; there are also dithiolthiones, which suppress the activation of
cancer-causing substances; high in chlorophyll, vitamin A, and sulphur.

Cantaloupe -- provides more vitamin A and C than most other types of fruit;
is high in potassium.

Carrot – powerful anti-oxidant; builds healthy skin and tissue; helps stop
diarrhea; helps build healthy teeth; improves eyesight; prevents eye and
mucus membrane infection. High in beta-carotene, vitamin B-complex, C, D, E,
K, iron, calcium, phosphorus, sodium, potassium, magnesium, manganese,
sulphur, and copper.

Celery – aids in kidney and liver function; contains vitamins A, B-complex,
and C and choline; as well as magnesium, manganese, iron, iodine, copper,
potassium, calcium, sulphur, sodium, and phosphorus; is rich in pectin;
celery helps to balance acidity in the body; is helpful in arthritis; is also
good for cancer.

Escarole – very rich in vitamin A, calcium, minerals, B-vitamins, iron, and
potassium; good for infections; for liver function; and internal cleansing.

Figs – kill bacteria, destroy roundworms; are an anti-cancer agent; a
restorative for the ill; and aid in digestion. Figs are good for destroying
intestinal parasites and contain high amounts of fibre.

Honeydew Melon – provides more vitamin A and C than most other types of
fruit; is high in potassium.

Kale – is the best cancer fighting vegetable we have on the planet; is the
richest of all leafy greens in carotenoids – powerful anti-cancer agents;
rich in vitamin A, C, riboflavin, niacin, calcium, magnesium, iron, sulphur,
sodium, potassium, phosphorus, and chlorophyll.

Leaf Lettuce – contain vitamins, minerals, usable calcium, and beta-carotene
needed for the immune system; good for gall bladder, spleen, heart and blood;
good for the nervous system
.
Mangoes – high in vitamin A, in addition to having a high content of vitamin
C; contains insoluble fibre; considered one of the power foods.

Parsley – improves function of kidneys, bladder, adrenal and thyroid gland;
corrects vitamin deficiency; aids in digestion; extremely high in nutrients;
very rich in vitamins A, B1, B-complex, C, potassium, phosphorus, calcium and
iron.

Parsnip – helps with colon disorders; constipation; heart problems and high
blood pressure. Contain more fibre than any common vegetable; they are rich
in potassium and are powerful cancer fighters by helping to keep the
digestive tract free of cancer causing substances.

Peaches – contain beta-carotene, potassium, and fibre; are good for those
suffering from cancer, heart disease; easy to digest.

Pear – have a very high insoluble fibre content, is a natural laxative, helps
arthritis, gout, lungs and stomach.

Pineapple – cleans the bloodstream and liver; good for inflammation, colds,
influenza and sore throats; aids in digestion; contains manganese which is an
essential part of certain enzymes needed to metabolize protein and
carbohydrates.

Romaine – contain vitamins, minerals, usable calcium, and beta-carotene
needed for the immune system. Good for gall bladder, spleen, heart and blood
and are a good brain food.

Strawberries – protects against viruses and cancer; protects against DNA
damage; protects against skin disorders. Contain high vitamin C, high in
potassium, good anti-oxidant. Can block the transformation of nitrosamine, a
powerful cancer causing substance

Sweet potato – high in vitamins A, C & E, and selenium; rich in protease
inhibitors which have been found to stop cancer in animals; protease
inhibitors also protect the body against viruses; lowers risk of cancer;
particularly helpful in forestalling lung cancer; dark orange vegetables
somehow interfere with the processes that lead to lung cancer.

Swiss Chard – corrects calcium deficiency; improves digestive function; is a
diuretic; contains vitamins A, and C, potassium, sodium, calcium, and iron.

Turnip – balances the calcium in the body; reduces mucus, helps asthma and
bronchitis and relieves sore throats.

Yellow Wax Beans – very high insoluble fibre content; is excellent for
removal of cancer-causing substances from the colon wall; contains cellulose,
hemicellulose, lignin; vitamins A, B-complex, and C.

Zucchini –squash (along with carrots and yams) protect the lungs from
environmental pollutants when at least one of these is consumed daily.

Notes:
Cruciferous vegetables include: broccoli, Brussels sprouts, cabbage,
cauliflower, kale, kohlrabi, horseradish, mustard greens, radishes, rutabaga,
turnip, watercress.

These twelve vegetables are the power fighters against cancer, and heart
disease. They are called cruciferous as they all have flowers with four
petals that botanical historians describe as resembling the crucifix or
Cross, hence the name cruciferous.

Cruciferous vegetables also lower thyroid function, so it is suggested not to
feed these day after day, 365 days per year. With every aspect of your pet's
diet, variety is key in nutritional balance.

Leafy green vegetables are extremely high in nutrients. They are high in
beta-carotene needed for the immune system. They ward off diseases such as
cancer, and are excellent for the gall bladder, spleen, heart and blood and
are considered a brain food.

When oxalic acid, as found in spinach, beet greens, Swiss chard, kale and
rhubarb, are combined with calcium, it makes another insoluble compound which
may form into kidney stones. Feeding these foods as part of a variety should
not cause this problem.

[GenHannibal]

Some people, like myself, prefer to grind the meats /bones. My two older ones cannot handle the bones as well as the younger ones. One is 13.9 years old and the other is 11.5 years old. My younger ones (6 & 7 years old) were raised on raw foods. They are all very healthy! I would start off gradually with your dogs to make sure they can handle the food, should you choose to feed it "whole", not ground.

[brunie's mom]

If you are uncomfortable about feeding BARF diet (raw meat, veggies).... wait till you get the book or learn more about it.
In the meantime please get your dogs off of Purina Dog Chow!!!
At least get them on Nutro Natural Choice..... it's sold at any Pet Smart or any pet food store.

The super premium foods are even better but you may have a harder time to find them.
Innova or California Natural (website www.naturapet.com)
Wellness
Canidae etc
are all great foods... they cost alot more but you feed the dogs about half of what you are feeding them now. They will have much smaller and less frequent bowel movements too;)
You will notice their coats are shiney and they will be in better health too.:)
Good-luck
Gina
Adopt-A-Rott Ontario

[Barbara Surplus]

Homer, I do believe you've said it all. :) I couldn't possibly add a single 'nother thing to your comments. I may have to post your list on my fridge as I often suffer from "frozen brain" as I'm trying to figure out what to feed the dogs.
Barbara

[AngelBunny]

Homerhomer:

When I pass I shall ask to come back as a Rottie in your house--I could do very nicely on that diet you outlined!