Supplement Advice Please

[JaniceH]

Hi,

I don't know if anyone can help or whether I have posted this in the right forum.Teazle has had another bout of gastritis (she had a bad one end of June) and the vet obviously can not say what is causing it. Throughout this she has always wanted to eat and is on the mend with medication.

The vet is indicating that it maybe a long term effect of one or more of the supplements she has been on.

Teazle was diagnosed with ED when she was about 18 months old and for the last 12 months (she is now 3) she has been on the following supplements which were recommended by mainly a canine nutritionist and the odd one from this site. Since being on these Teazle has not really suffered any ED related lameness and walked miles.

They are:
Bromelain 2000 GDU 1500mg
Tumeric 1000mg
Vitamin E 400iu
MSM 1000mg
Ester-C with Bioflavanoids 1000mg
Wild Salmon Oil 2000mg

In addition she is on Seraquin from the vet which is a Glucosomine/Chondroitin supplement. Each supplement is spread between her two meals a day. They are mainly added to her food ( Burns Natural Diet) or given with a small blob of peanut butter for those she hates. Whenever we go for a long walk she is put on metacam prior to the walk.

The vet who diagnosed her ED has been fully aware of what she has been on, but the vet who has been treating her recently for various conditions including the gastritis is not a believer in supplements.

Can any of you identify if there could be a problem with all these supplements? If you need any more info please ask. Also if you think I should post this in the Health section, please say so.

Thank you.

[groupieindenial]

I've never heard of Tumeric. This is what I found.
Turmeric and curcumin are considered safe when taken at the recommended doses. However, extended or excessive use of curcumin may produce stomach upset and, in extreme cases, ulcers.
Turmeric

Also never heard of Bromelain, this is what I found.
Possible side effects from bromelain include nausea, vomiting, diarrhea
Bromelain

Sounds like it could be the Tumeric. I've never heard of these, but I usually don't mess with ongoing supplements that have known negative side effects, or fat soluble ones that can cause more damage than good. The others you listed are fairly safe. However, you may not want to OVERLOAD on too many supplements all at once that do the same. Its a good idea to rotate between ones that have similar functions. I.E. like the MSM and Glucosamine. You can either do one for a few weeks, then the other, or alternate days.

Although it sounds like for the most part, these supplements have been working on the ED (Elbow Displacia?). Try taking the Tumeric out for a few weeks, or both Tumeric and Bromelain.

Originally Posted by JaniceH

Hi,

I don't know if anyone can help or whether I have posted this in the right forum.Teazle has had another bout of gastritis (she had a bad one end of June) and the vet obviously can not say what is causing it. Throughout this she has always wanted to eat and is on the mend with medication.

The vet is indicating that it maybe a long term effect of one or more of the supplements she has been on.

Teazle was diagnosed with ED when she was about 18 months old and for the last 12 months (she is now 3) she has been on the following supplements which were recommended by mainly a canine nutritionist and the odd one from this site. Since being on these Teazle has not really suffered any ED related lameness and walked miles.

They are:
Bromelain 2000 GDU 1500mg
Tumeric 1000mg
Vitamin E 400iu
MSM 1000mg
Ester-C with Bioflavanoids 1000mg
Wild Salmon Oil 2000mg

In addition she is on Seraquin from the vet which is a Glucosomine/Chondroitin supplement. Each supplement is spread between her two meals a day. They are mainly added to her food ( Burns Natural Diet) or given with a small blob of peanut butter for those she hates. Whenever we go for a long walk she is put on metacam prior to the walk.

The vet who diagnosed her ED has been fully aware of what she has been on, but the vet who has been treating her recently for various conditions including the gastritis is not a believer in supplements.

Can any of you identify if there could be a problem with all these supplements? If you need any more info please ask. Also if you think I should post this in the Health section, please say so.

Thank you.

[Diane Heller-Vaccaro]

I feel like their spokesperson. Check out Nature's Farmacy West there supplements are excellent and unique even done to the micro encapsulating process. No other company is doing what they are doing with supplements.

Don't let any vet tell you supplements aren't necessary especially the Vitamin C. Go to that site and look up Cran-Tri-C it has been proven dogs suffering from h/d have marked mobility improvement from using high grade Ester-C. This combines all 3 C's with a cranberry base for maximum absorption. Just one of there many supplements I use.

If you have questions feel free to contact Debbie the owner, they are a wealth of information. She can answer all your questions and taylor a supplement regimine that can help improve your dogs health.

[observer]

Missy's physical therapist (yes, she has one! ) recommended the Bromelain, having had good results with it in his patients. She has been on it for a week no problems so far. It is found in smaller quantities in compounds like Dog Gone Pain.

It may be the combination of the bromelain and the turmeric. We know about side effects of individual drugs/supplements, but we don't always know about what happens when they are combined. But, since both of them separately may cause upset, perhaps that possibility is heightened when they are combined.

Why it has only happened twice, at three month intervals, in the last year is the question, if those substances are the cause.

MSM is often found with glucosamine and chondrotin in many of the joint supplements like Glycoflex and Synovi. Is there some in the Seraquin you are using as well?

While these supps may all be good things, there's a lot less information about negative consequences of oversupplementation. It's the "if some is good, is more better?" quandary.

[JaniceH]

Thank you both.

The Tumeric is actually in the Seraquin which is supplied by the vets, so maybe I am overloading that. Also I noticed the recomended dose for the Bromelain is less than I was advised to give, so again, she may have been overloaded on that too.

I think I will stop the above (well she hasn't been on anything for a week) for 6 months at least and look into the Natures Farmacy West supplements. I will keep her on everything else.

It is very difficult as there are so many views and so much to read. She has just done so well as regards the ED.

Some time ago I had posted about her general health problems in the vet/health section. She has now suffered 5 conditions in less than 3 months and is not the dog I had 3 months ago ie. her energy level is not what it used to be. Can anyone recommend a general pick me up. Maybe if I cut out the bromelain and tumeric (the two she actually hates the most) this may have some effect on her general well being.

Just a final note...she has never stopped wanting to eat, play or walk, it is just that she is not up to the long walks I used to take her on. I would love to have my mountain goat back.

[groupieindenial]

Originally Posted by JaniceH

They are mainly added to her food ( Burns Natural Diet) or given with a small blob of peanut butter for those she hates. .

How long have you been feeing Burns Natural Diet? Its pretty low on the protein, only 18.5%, and the fat only 7.5%. This alone could explain her lack of energy. The feeding guideline suggests its calorically dense, but IMO is WAY too low on the protein/Fat ratios.

I don't mean to pick apart the food, but the first ingredient is whole grain brown rice, NOT a meat protein. Even though rice is highly digestable, it can cause for looser stools. Peas are high on the list, can cause gas. Not sure if this helps, but thought I'd point it out.

[Diane Heller-Vaccaro]

The key to supplements, especially if you are using multiples, is to make sure you aren't over doing it. Because there are so many out there that use the same ingredient but different marketing approaches you might not realize that there are many of the same ingredients. You can easily give too much of a good thing. You will commonly see things for joints in many supplements today. So just like food read carefully and know what your dog is receiving. I've said it before and I swear I only buy my supplements, no discounts or anything but the people at naturesfarmacywest know supplements so if you have a question you can always call them. Realize that they operate on the premiss that everything must be human grade and holistic. I call Debbie whenever I have supplement questions.

[observer]

The labeling on the Bromelain is a little confusing between the GDUs and milligrams so that when I compare your numbers to mine they don't line up, but if I compare the mgs only, Missy's dosage is only 500 mg/day, not 1500. Given that we are also trying the DGP, which has an unknown quantity of bromelain in it as well, I think that's plenty, and am keeping an eye on her.

[JaniceH]

Thanks, I hear what you say but I have been feeding Burns since she was a pup, and it is only since June she has lost some of that energy. Until then she could run up a mountain, walk 14 miles a day and still want to play in the evening. When we were in training for our walking holiday, I even changed to a higher protein diet which Burns supply.

Diane, I will certainly contact Debbie but not by phone since it would be very expensive I think from the UK. I will e-mail her as there is an adress on the web site.

[JaniceH]

Just seen your post Observer, thanks. I really do think I have been giving her too much Bromelain.

[observer]

Good luck, Janice! I know how much you love your girl. Hope you get everything going the right direction soon.

[Idealconcepts]

I talked with an employee and a chemist at Equine direct and they have people who purchase thier products for their larger dogs. They said to check with our vet to help determine the correct amounts to use for our dogs since their dossages are designed for 1,200pound animals. They have pure powered forms of MSM, Gluscosumin (SP??), and Chorditonin (SP??). They also have supplements that contain these and other ingridents. They also stated they would be releasing a line especially designed for dogs possibly January 2007. I'm waiting to decide till then if I want to just use Gluc and Chord as a preventative or go with one of their supplements designed for dogs. Hope this helps.

[JaniceH]

Hi Idealconcepts,

Thanks for the info. Teazle is on Seraquin which is a Glucosomine/Chondroitin supplement for dogs and I did increase the dose from what the vet originally recommended when she went lame again. He was happy with that saying one has to experiment in order to find out what works for the individual dog.

Since her gastritis I have taken her off all supplements apart from the Seraquin and I also give ger 1000mg Cod Liver Oil a day. I am just seeing how she goes and so far so good.

Please let me know how you go on in January 2007.

Thanks.

[groupieindenial]

I wouldn't be supplementing w/cod liver oil. Its old school thinking. You do not want to supplment with anything that comes from an organ that filters toxins.

Why are you supplementing with Cod Liver oil? You did not mention this in your original post.

[JaniceH]

Hi Sabina,

I didn't realise its an old school thing now, although I admit I used it for years.

The reason I started using it was because of the excellent result I got with an old dog of mine many years ago. She was thirteen and had arthritis and sometimes yelped when she got up and was quite stiff. The vet recommended the cod liver oil. After about 4-5 weeks she never yelped again, moved much more easily and died at the ripe old age of 17.

Then I had Luka, my previous rott, who had had several operations which would no doubt mean she would develop arthritis later in life. I gave her cod liver oil and she never limped and was pain free until she died of cancer at 8.

So because Teazle has ED, the vet was happy for her to go on a fish oil and a canine nutritionist recommended Wild Salmon Oil as being better than cod liver oil. But during my investigations regarding Teazle's supplemets, someone somewhere suggested that Salmon Oil could have too much metal content.

By this time, after trying to digest all the info received and talking to nutritionists etc. I decided to keep everything simple and take her off all the supplements other than what she was first on when originally diagnosed ie. the Seraquin and Cod Liver Oil. I am simply playing it by ear now and she seems to have got over her gastric problems, but I expect I will never know what caused them. I just hope and pray it doesn't mean her ED will become a problem again, which as yet it hasn't been.

I hope you understand me a little better.