Working Weight vs Show Weight

[mwaters]

I'm looking for some advice...I am a 'working dog' person. My last rottie never saw the inside of a show ring. I do Schutzhund primarily and keep my dogs lean...can see a rib or two...

My new boy (15 months now) does not have the 'faults' of my previous boy and I'm planning on entering him in a Sieger show in July. I currently have him at what I consider 'working weight'...can see a rib or two and he does have a tuck up in his belly.

So what's the question???

Do those of you who work your dogs put weight on them for the show ring? If so how much time do you take to add the weight? Have you seen any negative effects on the increase/decrease of weight? Do you have a weight gain/loss plan?

What methods do you use to add the weight? Just more food or different supplements?

I look forward to your advice.

Melissa

[BostonRott]

I will say this (and probably be drawn & quartered for doing so) .....while many Sieger show people purport that their dogs are not nearly as fat as AKC/CKC show dogs, they are NOT in working weight at shows......not if you want to do well. Or at least not how *I* (and apparently also *you* ) define "working weight."

If you want him to do well, you'll probably need to add 10lbs at least. They don't want to see ribs showing.

I personally think that adding weight for shows is STUPID and I refuse to do it. This is a WORKING breed and if they can't be shown at working weight (and do well), well, I'm not gonna worry about it. I know for a fact that going between the AKC show ring and a TRULY working weight dog (can see ribs, not "feel them" ) is about 20lbs (according to my friend who shows/finishes her own dogs in breed, then trials in Agility, to Top 10 level placements).

To play with the weight of a dog like this is not healthy.....no more than it is for you to continually add/shed weight. More weight is harder on the body, and over the long term life of the dog, less healthy.

If the work is what you love, keep him at working weight and take the rating you get at the show. A rating does NOT change what your dog is, how your relationship is with him, etc.

Most of what I've seen in show rings (AKC and Sieger) would NOT last very long on a SchH field working bark/hold at their show weights.

If I need to increase weight (I often do with Banja during the more active months.....she sheds weight like she sheds coat!), I simply increase food, and perhaps add some fattier meats. When taking weight off a dog, I decrease food and increase exercise.......the simple basics you've known all your life.

[mwaters]

Thank you Gretchen. That is exactly what I needed to hear. It breaks my heart to see some of the chubby Rotts in the ring. I will show my boy as he is and while he may not get gasps of delight from the crowd at the show I think he will on the Schutzhund field .

I was a spectator at a sieger show last summer and watched one of the female classes...I think it was the 9-12 month class. The bitches...(in my opinion) were grossly overweight. The judge actually had some pretty harsh words for the owners/handlers and said that puppies should not be carrying this much weight and that they shouldn't look like adults. He actually said that they were 'killing the dogs' by having them so heavy .

That was the moment I thought I may have a hope in the Sieger arena!

Thanks again although I'm sure Eri won't thank you when he learns he won't be getting any extra meals afterall!

[fbkeays]

I just got back from BC Canada. My dog was much leaner then the other show dogs, especially the specials. He was an open dog being an American and being the first time up there. I actually worked on getting his winter flab into muscle before going. I don't like to show fat dogs much to my handlers' requests.
He took reserve at the specialty and two five point majors at the all breed. Granted that he probably isn't at a severe a working weight as your dog is, he isn't soft to the touch. He has muscle defination. He does have a slight tuck up.
Show him at the weight you are comfortable with showing him. Judges need to see dogs that are in shape and can work. Perhaps the more they see it, the more they will appreciate it. My dogs don't need the extra weight to hide flaws. I am blessed with dogs with good structure. It sounds like you are too.

[rottcrazed]

It is SOOO true how truly FAT some show dogs are. I always find it sad that these dogs are bred to work and cannot run around the ring because of their weight.

Although my idea of working weight is a little different than yours (I think), I will never PORK my dogs up for a show. I like them to look lean and muscular.

I was told at the last dog show I was entered in (by a long time breeder) that Wicca has too much of a tuck up. Um, yeah. She is much thicker than her mother (not because she is fat - she has more bone and is overall bigger)so she is more dog than I am used to, but I still like to see a lean profile.

And Wicca is also entered in that sieger show along with 4 of her littermates, none of which are going to be told by any judge that they are fat!

Kristi

[BostonRott]

While a true working weight dog may not garner a top V rating or placements (depending on what the judge "likes" vs what your dog is), you will still get an accurate critique regarding hte overall structure and movement of your dog. To me, this is most important. Vikka recently got a STELLAR critique, but then was SG'd b/c of mouth pigment. I know she's a V bitch, the critique describes a V bitch and to quote a judge "any moron can pick out a pink mouth."

[frontierrots]

The trouble is that for DECADES judges and breeders have been brainwashed to think a correct Rottweiler is supposed to have a LEVEL underline. I can still recall the uproar when the new standard came out and said "slight tuck up" because all were convinced that was highly incorrect

In order to have a LEVEL underline the dog must be 15-20lbs overweight!

I keep my dogs fit , muscled and lean. They have a PRONOUNCED waist when viewed from above, a visible tuck and if you lay your hand on them you can feel ribs

I stopped showing Bill as a young dog because people kept telling me to put 10-15lbs on a PUPPY I don't think so

Looking at the majority of show dogs including pups from high profile kennels, they all have darn near level underlines and are WAY too fat

[Ann Felske-Jackman]

I agree that most of what's in every ring is grossly overweight, and that's both at AKC/CKC shows and Sieger Shows. Unfortunately, I'm seeing the opposite hold true in many of the working venues, where some dogs are kept so underweight that it's equally unhealthy.

We tend find that we're always trying to schedule shows and trials together because, by the time our slow maturing dogs are ready to win in the rings, they are also finally mentally ready to earn their working titles.

I would suggest finding the right weight for your dog's height and build, along with the caloric intake that maintains the energy level where you want it and keeping it there. It is safer than continually adding/reducing weight. By this rule, our dogs are usually the heaviest Rottweilers trialing and the leanest Rottweilers showing. They can usually hold their own in either venue at this weight.

[RottsNScotts]

With both Abbo and Toby, I had a 5 pound variance between "show season" and when they were doing only work. Abbo was 105 for work, 110 for show; Toby 113 for work, 118 for show. They always were the fittest in the ring and I, too, had MANY discussions with Toby's handler, breeder, judges, spectators, etc about his weight. I pointed out that right after the show, he was going to go do herding, sometimes in a big field, and that I was NOT going to pack the weight on him and end up hurting him.

I usually added that if judges could not tell the difference between weight an substance, I couldn't help them!

I was disappointed to see how heavy a number of the dogs were at this last weekend's independent German style show in Oregon. I will say the judge DID get after a number of people about their dog's weight and condition and even placed them lower due to it. And TOLD them that was why!

[GenHannibal]

Gretchen, I agree with you whole heartedly!!! Unfortunately, the last USRC Sieger show I was at (May 2004), I still saw many dogs that had more weight on them then necessary. No one is saying the dogs need to look like Dobermans, but what some people think are perfect weight, is still overweight for the "working dog". It disgusts me and saddens me when owners who do both show & work, put the added weight onto their dogs to please the conformation judges. That working dog has to run blinds, jump hurdles and scale a wall, run agility courses or any other activity. I'd like to see those owners do the same with the comparable extra weight they put on their dogs! My 15 month old pup (sister to Melissa's male), will be shown with her working weightl. Guess, I'll have to find a judge(s) who has a realistic concept on what our dogs should weigh to do the WORK.

[BostonRott]

Wayne Simanovich will appreciate such a dog. He's about as "working" as it gets, and his knowledge of structure is IMPECCABLE. I've shown under him twice and enjoyed it both times.

[fbkeays]

I weighed Fizbin last night. He is 108 pounds. He is a medium large male. So 108 pound male took reserve at a specialty and two BOW for 5 points each up in Canada. It is possible for a fit dog to do well in conformation. Fizbin earned a herding title just before going to Canada and hopefully he will earn another herding title this weekend as well.
As for that level underline, I have seen so many male dogs that look pregnant from the side because the underline wasn't level, but sagging. These are multi group winning dogs.

[mwaters]

Wow...I'm so glad I asked this question...I'm excited about the show now...Eri is entered under Werner Walter...I don't know him or many other conformation judges for that matter ....but I will report back how things go for us at the show.

Now hopefully I can get him to gait nicely around the ring and not try to grab all the pylons like he did last time . Any tips for getting a dog to gait properly? I'm all ears...

Melissa

[BostonRott]

Get out and practice with him daily before the show. Go to a large field (soccer) and run in counter-clockwise squares (he needs to know how to corner). I give a light pop back and say "turn" to let them know the corner is there.

Also, be sure you can show the teeth easily. When they check his balls, just shove a toy in his face, he won't even notice.

[mwaters]

Ok...but how do I convince him he isn't supposed to be watching me? He has really turned on to heeling and I'm sure he thinks that is what I want. I tried rewarding him when he looks forward but then he watches me even more waiting for a treat...maybe I should reward him by tossing a ball forward? Is it ok if he is trotting beside me on a loose line? He doesn't seem to want to go ahead and pull on the line like I've seen others do in the ring.

No problem showing teeth...thanks to the advice I got here on how to teach him to open his mouth!

He's pretty good with balls too...I worked on that since he was little...lots of touching all over.

Thanks again for the advice...
Melissa & Eri (the working showdog)