Large breed puppy

[WendiS]

I didn't wan't to break into someone elses thread so here I am with my own
When we got our guy the breeder warned us about watching the quality of food he ate and keeping him lean to keep pressure of his growth plates. So we bought and fed nutro large breed puppy food with glucosomine and chondroitin "for healthy joints" it was also a controlled growth formula which was suppose to allow him to grow at a slower pace to protect his joints. We fed this food for months but he was gassy and had frequent b.m.'s and they were pretty large, so with all the talk of canadea(sp?) on this site I decided to try it. Well they didn't have it at the grange where I buy my food so I went with Innova puppy which we have been very happy with. No gas, small stools, much less frequent. After reading a recent post on large breed puppy and following the link to an article give I managed to convince my self that I had made the stupidest choice in food ever and I had stunted my poor dogs growth (he's 9 mo's and over 90lbs but lean with a nice waist) (Reality dosent always play an important roll in my histerics) I was absolutly certain I had stunted my dogs growth. Honestly, I was trying to figure out how long I'd fed it since the article said the damage could be reversed with proper amounts of protien. So I went to the nutro website and got the nutritional values then I compared it to the Innova I'm feeding now for at least twice the money Here's what I found out:

NATURAL CHOICE LARGE BREED PUPPY
Guaranteed AnalysisCrude Protein (minimum) 27.00%
Crude Fat (minimum) 13.00%
Crude Fiber (maximum) 4.00%
Moisture (maximum) 10.00%
Linoleic Acid (minimum) 3.50%
Calcium (minimum) 1.00%
Calcium (maximum) 1.50%
Phosphorus (minimum) 0.60%
Phosphorus (maximum) 1.30%
Zinc (minimum) 240 mg/kg
Vitamin E (minimum) 200 IU/kg
Ascorbic Acid (minimum)* 35 mg/kg
L-Carnitine (minimum)* 15 mg/kg
Glucosamine Hydrochloride (minimum)* 325 mg/kg
Chondroitin Sulfate (minimum)* 250 mg/kg

Innova Puppy
Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protien (min): 26%
Crude Fat (min): 12%
Crude Fiber (max): 3.5%
Moisture (max): 10%
Vitamin E (min): 1000 IU/kg
*Linoleic Fatty Acids (Omegs 6) (min): 3.9%
*Fatty Acids (Omega 3) (min): 1.3%
*Total microorganisms (min) 1,000,000,000 CFU/lb
(Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus acidophillus, Lactobacillus plantarum in equal amounts)
Calories: 4,000 kcal/kg
Calories: 500 kcal/cup
*Not recognized as an essential nutrient by the AAFCO Dog Food Nutruent Profiles

So, now I'm really confused. The protien amounts are higer in the Nutro and I'm not even finding the calcium in the Innova
I know the Innova has fewer and better grade ingredients Nutro's don't say anything about being human grade so It's a safe bet they are not. But of the two the large breed comes closer to providing the correct nutritional requirements supplied in the article posted.
Any thoughts?

[brunie's mom]

Don't upset yourself...your pup sounds like he is the perfect weight.
Nutro Large Breed has alot of grain...that's why the protein is a bit higher. The protein is not as important and the type of protein. Nutro's protein is mostly made of of grains, and Innova is mostly meats. Meat is a much better complete protein, as it is digested and utilized better by the body.

That's why your poor pup was so farty with the Nutro Large Breed. ...all of those grains.

You could take your pup off of the Innova Puppy and put him on the Adult Innova now. Many of us on the forums have raised our pups without ever feeding puppy food. I raised my pup on Canidae and Adult Innova...rotated every 2-3 months. He grew slowly, and steady...without ever going through that gawky stage that many pups do. He gained about 10 lbs average per month till he was 9 months and then slowed down in weight gain. His hips and elbows were prelimed at 13 months when he was neutered and the vet said they were excellent.

Gina

[WendiS]

Thanks Gina, that makes absolute sense. So what determines whether they should be on puppy food or not? And what is the main difference between the Innova puppy and the Innova adult? I really do like him on a high quality puppy food, at least for the first year. Though I've heard of people keeping their young dogs on puppy food for at least 18 mo's to 2 years. Since his growth is nice and steady and he's not over weight I probably will stay with the Innova puppy. I was just worried about having started him out on a large breed food when everyone here is so adamantly against it.
Thanks
Wendi

[WendiS]

I really hope no one sees me as a large breed food advocate but in looking at the Innova site and comparing it to the suggested protien/calcium values recomended in the article Bostonrott posted in another thread the large breed food, both puppy and adult actually come closer to her recomendation. Especially the calcium levels which she stresses as important

"No proof was found that protein amounts affect skeletal growth in any adverse, except when using too little or too poor quality."

"Disturbances of skeletal growth were also seen in research animals (Great Danes), which were energy restrictedly raised on a food with a normal calcium level (1.0~56 calcium on dry matter base, according to the requirements of dogs as followed by many of the manufacturers and owners for dog food preparation). Therefore we now advise to raise dogs, vulnerable for these skeletal diseases, on a balanced food with a calcium content decreased to 0.8 or 0.9% on dmb (dry matter basis)."
Protein Amounts and Puppies
By Lew Olson

So in checking on the Innova site the adult food has a protien level of 24%
and Calcium of 1.16%

Innova puppy has a protien level of 26%
and a calcium level 1.27%

The large breed adult is protien level is 24%
and calcium level is .94
and large breed puppy is protien 25%
Calcium .89%

The article states that an adaquate protien level is above 15%
Now, am I missing something or is the large breed food actually closer to the recomended values?
I really don't have an interest in promoting large breed food I don't even feed it any more but could it be that a high quality large breed food just might be a good choice?

[brunie's mom]

It's not just the calcium levels...it's the ratio for calcium/phosphorus.
Most nutritionists recommend a 1:1 ratio as being the best for growth.
Many of those foods are very close to it.

You also must remember that if the pup is overfed, even with the best of food, it may have joint and ligament problems. If a pup is carrying 5 or 10 extra lbs...on it's frame while growing it does the most damage, at the worst time.

Keep your pup on the Innova Puppy...but if I remember the ingredients..I think the Innova Puppy has more fat and a bit more protein then the Adult formula??
I have to look it up.

Gina

[brunie's mom]

O.k...I took a look at the Naturapet website.
Puppy Innova has : Protein 26%, Fat 12% , Calcium 1.27% - Phos. 1.01% and has 500 calories per cup.

Adult Innova has: Protein 24%, Fat 14%, Calcium 1.16% - Phos. 0.93%
and has 556 calories per cup.

Innova Large Breed Puppy has: Protein 24%, Fat 12%, Calcium 0.94%- Phos. 0.79% and has 366 calories per cup.

The ingredients in the foods are almost all of the same...chicken, turkey, lamb,etc...

It seems that Naturapet has also jumped on the Large Breed Food bandwagon. The Large Breed Puppy is low in calories, and I would think alot more food will have to be fed to a growing puppy....mmmmmm ....more food??? more bags of dogfood sold. GRRRR.

Gina

[WendiS]

I also noticed that the large breed food was a few dollars cheaper. The gal at the grange that tried to talk me into using the large breed seemed to think that it made sense as there was less protien. Now why, if the food was equal in quality, would it be less expensive? Yeah, she couldn't answer the question either. I suppose if you were determined to feed a large breed food Innova would be a decent choice but if what your saying about the calcium/phosphorus ratio is correct (I am so new to a lot of these details ) then they aren't terribly balanced either.

So, if I understand it calcium and phosphorus should be 1:1 and in the .8 -.9% range and protien should be above 15% what other things should I be watching for in a food...other than total calories if he starts to get a bit chubby and the overall quality of the food especially the sources of protien...oh, and no more grains! I so don't miss the gassy days

What about the glucosomine and chondroitin that's bragged about in the LB foods? Is that a concern if they eat a good balanced diet and thier weight is maintained well? Also wouldn't rotts be considered more of a medium sized dog rather than large? I know they tend to be muscular and solid but not really large. Ok, I've asked every single question that's popped into my head so, I think I'll stop now before there are more and I really start to sound like a 3 year old.

Wendi

[spidey]

Now why, if the food was equal in quality, would it be less expensive?

Simple: there's more filler in it, so therefore less of the expensive things like meat (it's just the manufacturer being honest). Think of it this way: if I have a cup of chicken that costs $1 per cup, if I sell you a cup of it, it costs you $1. Now if I mix the chicken with filler (say, 1 cup of breadcrumbs), I now have two cups of mixed chicken and breadcrumbs, or I've diluted the chicken by half, so buying a cup of the chicken/breadcrumb mixture will only cost you $0.50 (assuming you're only paying for the chicken), since 1 cup of the mixture contains only 1/2 cup of chicken. The ingredients quality is the same, you're just getting less of it. I expect Innova is offering a large breed puppy food because it's the current "in demand" food right now (being recommended by vets and all that). At least if you feed the Innova, you're feeding a high quality food (with filler) as opposed to a low quality food (with filler).

[brunie's mom]

Many dog food manufactures consider Large Breed dogs to be anything that will weigh over 50 lbs. at maturity.

I would consider a Rottweiler a large breed....anything to me over about 75lbs to 120 lbs is large...after that we are talking giant.

As far as the glucosamine/chondroitin added to the food...this is another marketing ploy...and everyone and his grandmother has joined in this as well. The small amounts that a dog would get in each serving would be of no medicinal value. If you want your pup/dog to get gluc/chond. that will act as a preventative or help out with sore joints you must purchase it and add it into the food itself.

I would not be so worried about protein/fat levels etc. in the food, but more the ingredients in the food. Worry about your dog needing a good quality, human grade protein such as chicken, turkey, lamb,etc....not corn, corn meal, wheat, wheat middlings,etc.
What kind of fat is the company using? Just plain animal fat...it could be anything..or does it use chicken fat or sunflower oil,etc???

Innova is a good company, with a very good reputation....just feed your dog a good quality food and enjoy.
Not sure how I managed to raise two children without worrying about proteins, carbs, fats,etc .....both strong, healthy and tall and they did not drink milk.

Gina

Gina

[keller27]

Originally Posted by brunie's mom

O.k...I took a look at the Naturapet website.
Puppy Innova has : Protein 26%, Fat 12% , Calcium 1.27% - Phos. 1.01% and has 500 calories per cup.

Adult Innova has: Protein 24%, Fat 14%, Calcium 1.16% - Phos. 0.93%
and has 556 calories per cup.

Innova Large Breed Puppy has: Protein 24%, Fat 12%, Calcium 0.94%- Phos. 0.79% and has 366 calories per cup.

The ingredients in the foods are almost all of the same...chicken, turkey, lamb,etc...

It seems that Naturapet has also jumped on the Large Breed Food bandwagon. The Large Breed Puppy is low in calories, and I would think alot more food will have to be fed to a growing puppy....mmmmmm ....more food??? more bags of dogfood sold. GRRRR.

Gina

When I emailed the Innova company about the Large Breed Puppy food, they said that I can stay on the Large Breed til he is 2 or I can go to the Adult food. I have had him on just the plain puppy since he was 10 weeks old til he was a year and then put him on the Large breed. 3 cups in the morning and 3 cups at night is his limit. He normally will not eat anymore than that. He is 13 months old and at 100 lbs. Feels more than that when he steps on your bare feet!

So you can see why so many of us are so confused about the food. I have been on Innova for many years and I love their food.

Let me ask this. What are the signs that your puppy is growning too fast? I haven't raised a large breed puppy before. Is it when they start limping? Haven't had any problems with Khori.

[keller27]

As far as the glucosamine/chondroitin added to the food...this is another marketing ploy...and everyone and his grandmother has joined in this as well. The small amounts that a dog would get in each serving would be of no medicinal value. If you want your pup/dog to get gluc/chond. that will act as a preventative or help out with sore joints you must purchase it and add it into the food itself.

I have added Missing Link for Joints. I have a 13 year old greyhound and even tho Innova has it in the food, I wanted to give her some extra without giving her a pill. She likes the taste of the Missing Link. It has the gluc/chond. in it. I also give it to my 8 year old shih tzu and also for Khori who is 13 months.

[brunie's mom]

Originally Posted by keller27

When I emailed the Innova company about the Large Breed Puppy food, they said that I can stay on the Large Breed til he is 2 or I can go to the Adult food. I have had him on just the plain puppy since he was 10 weeks old til he was a year and then put him on the Large breed. 3 cups in the morning and 3 cups at night is his limit. He normally will not eat anymore than that. He is 13 months old and at 100 lbs. Feels more than that when he steps on your bare feet!

So you can see why so many of us are so confused about the food. I have been on Innova for many years and I love their food.

Let me ask this. What are the signs that your puppy is growning too fast? I haven't raised a large breed puppy before. Is it when they start limping? Haven't had any problems with Khori.

Your pup is done with all of his major growth. He may fill in some more, but as far as height he will probably not grow much taller. He may gain another 10 lbs or so...it really is not going to make that much of a difference at this stage of his develpement.

I would not be feeding the Innova Large Breed Puppy...there is alot more fillers in the food and you have to feed WAY more food. Of course they are pushing you to feed the LBP till he is 2 so they can sell more bags of dog food.
As an example, my pup Baxter is 18 month old, he is 105 lbs. and right now he is on a rotation of Adult Innova. He only eats 2 cups total per day!!! You will have to buy 3 bags of the Large Breed Puppy for every bag of Adult Innova that I buy to feed your dog.
Large Breed Puppy has 366 calories per cup, and Adult Innova has 556 calories per cup. A big difference in calories...this is why your pup needs to eat 6 cups of food per day and my pup only 2 cups.

The company has found a great way to sell more food.

As far as the signs of a puppy growing too fast...the symptoms of pano are limping from leg to leg. One day it is the front left leg, the next the right leg. It could also be stiffness after exercise....or a reluctance to stand up after laying down. Believe me...if your pup was growing too fast you would know by now.

Gina