Calcium Supplments- Am I being told to feed my dog way to much calcium?

[caffaddict]

Howdy all,
I have a recent addition to my family with a rottie boy! (9 months old, 106 lbs, 23 inches tall) Had him since 8 weeks.

My breeder is selling me pet calcium (buttermilk derived) tablets for CDN $40. This breeder is also telling me to keep upping his calcium intake everytime we cross paths. It's also about 3 times the price of human grade calcium tabs.

I know that the recommended daily intake of calcium is the equivlent of 1000 mg per day. (2 500 mg tablets) (adult human)

My breeder has me giving my guy 10 tabs a day (one tab for every 10 lbs aprox) 5 times what is recommended for human consumption

With this much calcium, his poo is white and a little chalky looking.

Is this a good idea to keep feeding him this much calcium? Am I going to damage his kidneys? I know he's a growing boy, and needs a good basis for his bone growth. I kind of thought he got most of his calculated nutrients from his "premium" natural large breed puppy food.

Help!
caffaddict in crisis.

[lblax]

you absolutly never supplemant a growing pup with calciam it is positively the worst thing for your dogs.. it calcifies the joints and can lead to a bunch of other health problems it is the worst thing for a growing pups joints and bones

studies have clearly show that excess calcium intake in large breed dogs will inhibit normal growth and induce bone and joint abnormalities. Calcium supplementation of puppy diets should thus be avoided

[brunie's mom]

There is no reason that a growing pup should ever have added calcium. I cannot imagine a breeder recommending this.

Most good quality dog foods contain more then enough calcium needed to build strong bones....the only reason I could see adding a calcium supplement would be if the dog is eating a BARF diet and not getting enough bones in his diet. Then the diet would have to be checked out and made sure that there is enough calcium in the diet.

By adding all of this calcium to your pups diet, his calcium/phosphorus ratio is WAY out. This can be doing alot of damage to your dogs bones in the future.

If your pup is 9 months old and 23" and 106 lbs....he sounds like he is overweight.

What are you feeding your pup???

Gina

[Judi W]

What he said!!! Unless you are feeding him cardboard for meals, any proper dog food should never be supplemented with calcium and to do so is detrimental to the skeletal system. Maybe it is her retirement program, but it will be damaging to the dog.

[alexav]

Your "Breeder" needs to poke his head out of the cave!
PLEASE STOP NOW!!!

[MonteRiehl]

Howdy all, and welcome caffaddict!
That's a whole tonne of calcium you have described. You might be able to sell the poo in your yard to schools as chalk. (just kidding)

I did a quick google search about calcium supplmentation, and found learned postings both for and against additional supplments for large breed dogs.

My breeder also is "for" calcium supplments. She has a Great dane breeder friend who advocates this, that she reffers to as her expert. My breeder's son is also a vet. I know he tells my breeder to supplment, but not as much as she does. She also does the BARF diet, and I use premium natural HGQ (human grade quality) pet foods.

I am really confused about which 'think camp' is correct.

What are the feelings of the Rottweiler group on overboard calcium supps? I would like to know if there are any studies or papers about this availible so I can make an informed decision as well.

regards,
Monte.

[moondog]

You are supplementing at DOUBLE the NRC recommended amount, in ADDITION to the calcium he is getting in his food (which is likely well in excess of minimum requirements)!!! How long have you been doing this?

Assuming this is not a case of misunderstanding what the breeder said, I'd say the breeder has their head very far up a very dark cave.

[MonteRiehl]

I changed my "google" seach a little, and I think that I will be tossing out the calcium tabs as soon as I get home.
The people in the "for supplments" seem to be describing in addition to BARF diets only.
There is a tonne of info about NEVER FEED A PUP calcium supps and a good quality pet food.

I hope I haven't caused problems for my guy later in life

consider me converted!.

Monte.

[lblax]

heres a study you asked for:::::: from : A Symposium Held at Western Veterinary Conference, February 1995.
Calcium

Plasma calcium concentration is tightly regulated by the body. This regulation is needed for the many calcium-dependent biologic processes, such as muscle contraction, hormonal release, and blood coagulation. The release of calcium-regulating hormones (parathyroid hormone [PTH], calcitonin [CT], and 1,25- dihydroxycholecalciferol [1,25 vitamin D]) is influenced by plasma calcium concentration. These hormones regulate calcium dynamics in the intestine, kidneys, and bone.
Calcium excess is routed primarily to bone through the influence of the calciotropic hormones on target organs. Chronic, high intake of calcium in large breeds has been associated with hypercalcemia, concomitant hypophosphatemia, rise in serum alkaline phosphatase, retarded bone maturation, higher percentage of total bone volume, retarded bone remodeling, decrease in osteoclasts, and retarded maturation of cartilage. These changes cause disturbances in endochondral ossification (articular and epiphyseal).(6) When high calcium intake (calcium excess) is coupled with relatively little absorption from bone, severe pathologic changes occur in the young, growing skeleton that is unable to respond by normal remodeling and endochondral ossification. The clinical diseases associated with these changes are osteochondrosis, retained cartilage cones, radius curvus syndrome, and stunted growth.(1,6) Therefore, calcium excess is a major causative or contributing factor in the pathogenesis of skeletal disease in the growing giant-breed dog.(3-6)

It is the absolute level of calcium, rather than the calcium/phosphorus ratio, that most influences skeletal disease.(11) Young, giant-breed dogs fed a diet containing 3.3% calcium (dry matter basis) and 0.9% or 3% phosphorus have significantly increased incidence of developmental bone disease. These dogs seem to be unable to protect themselves against the negative effects of chronic excess levels of calcium.(26) Calcium levels for a growth diet should be between 1% and 1.6% (dry matter basis). Often puppies are switched from growth to maintenance diets to avoid calcium excess and skeletal disease. However, because maintenance diets are generally of much lower energy density than growth diets, the puppy must consume more dry matter volume to meet its energy requirement. If the calcium levels (dry matter basis) are similar between the two diets, the puppy will actually consume more calcium on the maintenance diet. This is exemplified in the case of switching a 13-week-old Great Dane puppy from a typical growth diet (4.2 kcal/g and 1.6% calcium on a dry matter basis) to a typical maintenance diet (3.2 kcal/g and 1.4% calcium on a dry matter basis). The puppy would consume approximately 638 g of the growth diet containing 10.2 g calcium. To meet energy needs of 2680 kcal/day, this same puppy would consume approximately 838 g of the maintenance diet containing 11.7 g of calcium.

Feeding treats containing calcium or providing calcium supplements further increases daily calcium intake. If the same 13- week-old, 20 kg Great Dane puppy were given two level teaspoons of a typical calcium supplement (calcium carbonate) in addition to the growth diet, it would more than double its daily calcium intake. This level is well beyond that shown to increase the risk for developmental bone disease.(11)

Recent investigations produced osteochondrosis in the fetuses of ewes fed high levels of dietary calcium.(24) Because of the rapid growth rate of giant-breed dogs, they become "sentinels" for nutritionally influenced skeletal disease such as is seen with excesses in dietary calcium. Similar changes may be slower to surface and are not as easily identified in the smaller breeds. Regardless of the risks of high calcium intake, dietary calcium is a highly influential nutrient for skeletal development.

[caffaddict]

I am really confused.
My breeder's written instructions insist upon the calcium supps. If I don't supplment, then I don't get the 2 year health guarntee. He was bought as a show quality dog, and I want to do conformation soon.

Brunie's mom,
He's a big boy. He's not overweight like his brothers, he's just big and tall. He was the alpha (biggest) pup, but his 3 brothers have 5-10 lbs on him on raw diets (wider). He's taller than them, and I think he looks better. But he is really heavy. I took him to the vet to use their scale. His parents both have CH status, and looked really good, clear hips, elbows, etc. They were also both at the top of the standard for the breed.

Judiw and alexav, if I stop feeding him supplements now, what will his health be like? Is there any way I should try to reverse any possible damage with diet?
Should I take him to the vet to be checked out now?
Should I keep with the program because of the breeder's wty?
Should I be looking to sue?

You have all really scared me, I love my dog, and I never would want him to do anything damaging to him.


Thanks for the advice Monte, I'll google this too next time I'm online and my boss isn't looking.
thanks for the article lblax, but I don't really understand what that means.


Thanks again to everyone else for the replies, but I'm really confused.

caffaddict

[lblax]

Originally Posted by caffaddict

I am really confused.
My breeder's written instructions insist upon the calcium supps. If I don't supplment, then I don't get the 2 year health guarntee. He was bought as a show quality dog, and I want to do conformation soon.

.

caffaddict

im not confused now.. she sells it and the health problems it will cause will not show till way past 2 years.. are you still confused??? i cant believe your vet let this go on and of course when someones vet does know about it and stops it then that also makes any contract claims against her knull and void she's one smart cookie lol

thanks for the article lblax, but I don't really understand what that means.

the article means that the way your breeder has you doing things you are ruining its skeletal developemant

[Judi W]

When a contract is nonsense and in fact designed to deceptively favor one party over the other (the breeder in this case), I'd pretty much suggest not feeding the supplement and if you want, say you did. The breeder in this case is either ignorant or worse greedy and recommending something that will be damaging to your pup. I would probably say she is both ignorant and greedy otherwise she would not be the one selling you the products which are not only damaging, but most likely over-priced as well. Shame on her.

[Anne]

When I bought my last pup I was advised by the breeder to feed a BARF diet with plenty of meaty bones and NEVER supplement with calcium.

I would say the thinking of this breed is way back in the dark ages when not much was known about healthy diets for dogs.

[brunie's mom]

Anyone feeding their dog a home prepared (cooked diet) would have to feed a calcium supplement....this would have to be worked out to see what the exact requirements are. Also some people feed raw meat without bones...these dogs would also require calcium.

If you are feeding a good quality dog food, there is NO need for any extra calcium to be added.

Gina

[Maryn306]

That's just plain too much. If she has you buying it from her...you're screwed if you stop supplementing him and buying it from her. So either you take the loss of the health guarantee and be honest..or keep buying the supplements, but stop giving them to him and she's none-the-wiser.

I would however recommend that you look into getting him on an Ester-C and/or glucosamine regimen for his joints.