Comparing Foods

[groupieindenial]

How much is it for a big bag?

Healthy eating does not mean super solid stools. Keep in mind that the more firm the stools are, the more filler your feeding your dog. My dog's stools are similar to what you've described above. Actually, if he doesn't poop when he's suppose to and does so later, the beginning is even firmer. It shouldn't ever be runny though, is that what your seeing?

[groupieindenial]

Originally Posted by spidey

Firm stools do not mean you're feeding filler. The large intestine has basically only two functions: to carry waste and to reabsorb water. The longer the stool sits in the large intestine, the more water will be absorbed, the firmer the stool will be. The reason you see firm at first followed by looser is simply that the firm stool has been in the large intestine for longer, and more water has been absorbed from it. You do tend to see smaller, firmer stools from most of the higher-quality foods, simply because the dog has absorbed more of the useful nutrients from the food, and there is less overall waste, and there is most definitely far less filler in the higher-end foods than in lower-quality foods.

Yeah, k that makes sense. THats what I meant to say.

Yo MTO, I'm not too far from you. If your looking for good food, made locally at a good price. You should check out Nature's FInest, which gets distributed out of Stoney Creek. It's pretty good food, for $30 per bag (CANADIAN) if you go pick it up, its not available in any stores. Recently have done some ingredient changes to add more Yucca. This is what I have my guy on, and he does wonderfully on it. Yes, it has corn as it's filler, but corn is a good vegetable protein, and fiber. It's 498 cal/cup, VERY concentrated food.

http://www.naturesfinestpetfoods.com/

[groupieindenial]

301 Hwy#8, but all the info is on the website.

I'm from Cambridge, but now residing in Waterloo.

Sure, Canidae is great! Just twice as expensive is all.

[mto502]

Originally Posted by groupieindenial

301 Hwy#8, but all the info is on the website.

I'm from Cambridge, but now residing in Waterloo.

Sure, Canidae is great! Just twice as expensive is all.

Hmmmm, interesting !
Thanks for the info. Now you're making me do math when I include the 11th bag of Canidae for free when each bag sells for $47.99.

$480 for 11 bags of Canidae as opposed to $330 for 11 bags of Nature's Finest.

How long does a bag last and we have the difference per year. 1 bag a month? So roughly $170 cheaper for Nature's Finest per year ?

[groupieindenial]

I throw in veggie slop, the odd raw meats, and a few supplements daily to try and fill any gaps that may be. He also gets liver treats I make, and whatever else I think is good for him here and there.

My guy is being fed the adult ratio, (still super lean though) over 3 cups per day (1500 cals) and it lasts me around 1.5 months. With treats and all, he's probably getting around 2000 cal/day.

I beleive the $30 includes taxes per bag.

[mto502]

Originally Posted by groupieindenial

I throw in veggie slop, the odd raw meats, and a few supplements daily to try and fill any gaps that may be. He also gets liver treats I make, and whatever else I think is good for him here and there.

My guy is being fed the adult ratio, (still super lean though) over 3 cups per day (1500 cals) and it lasts me around 1.5 months. With treats and all, he's probably getting around 2000 cal/day.

I beleive the $30 includes taxes per bag.

I didn't think raw meat was safe ?
When I spoke to a person at the Petfood Warehouse today they also rcommended throwing in plain yogurt every couple of days. She mentioned it's very good and she does this for her own pooch's. She said it aides in dogs especially that have the runs with replacing important becteria or something in the intestinal tract. When dogs have loose stool they strip that beneficial bacteria, but she added that it's beneficial to the dog to add yogurt regardless.

What's veggie slop? Just a bunch of frozen bagged veggies put in a blender ?

My girl is 5 months old and I'm feeding her roughly 4 1/4 cups per day.

[brunie's mom]

Originally Posted by groupieindenial

Yeah, k that makes sense. THats what I meant to say.

Yo MTO, I'm not too far from you. If your looking for good food, made locally at a good price. You should check out Nature's FInest, which gets distributed out of Stoney Creek. It's pretty good food, for $30 per bag (CANADIAN) if you go pick it up, its not available in any stores. Recently have done some ingredient changes to add more Yucca. This is what I have my guy on, and he does wonderfully on it. Yes, it has corn as it's filler, but corn is a good vegetable protein, and fiber. It's 498 cal/cup, VERY concentrated food.

http://www.naturesfinestpetfoods.com/

This food has alot more grains and less meat then either Canidae or even the Ultra Performatrin. You are paying for grain....not meat.

It sounds like an O.K. food...but honestly there is nothing special about it...and cost wise it is about the same .

Gina

[brunie's mom]

Originally Posted by mto502

I didn't think raw meat was safe ?
When I spoke to a person at the Petfood Warehouse today they also rcommended throwing in plain yogurt every couple of days. She mentioned it's very good and she does this for her own pooch's. She said it aides in dogs especially that have the runs with replacing important becteria or something in the intestinal tract. When dogs have loose stool they strip that beneficial bacteria, but she added that it's beneficial to the dog to add yogurt regardless.

What's veggie slop? Just a bunch of frozen bagged veggies put in a blender ?

My girl is 5 months old and I'm feeding her roughly 4 1/4 cups per day.

Yes...raw meat is safe. Many of us feed our dog raw meat...it's called the BARF diet. You can look up some websites with info www.barfers.com or just put in BARF Diet into you search engine.

I think that your puppy is having stool problems because you are WAY overfeeding her. Try cutting back her food by about a cup less per day.
My pup that is close to 80 lbs now, only eats 4 cups total per day...and has never eaten more then that. When he was 5 months old, he probably ate only about 3 cups total. I think I would feed 1 cup per meal??

Rott pups are always hungry....and never seem to be fed enough. You want your pup nice and lean, and growing slowly. Once the amount of food is cut back....her bowels may regulate too.

Gina

[groupieindenial]

Originally Posted by brunie's mom

This food has alot more grains and less meat then either Canidae or even the Ultra Performatrin. You are paying for grain....not meat.

It sounds like an O.K. food...but honestly there is nothing special about it...and cost wise it is about the same .

Gina

Oh come on Gina, corn or rice, still a grain, fiber and filler. THe only bad thing about corn, is that it "tends" to be an allergy like wheat, but my dog isn't allergic to corn. How much white rice does Canidae have?? White rice has very little nutrition, high carb though. Also, you don't know the percentages of the ingredients, just a list on the bag. If it has soo much filler, why is it so concentrate at nearly 500 calories per cup?! Canidae has 466.25/cup. Does this mean Canidae has more filler?

Actually, Canidae has 4% fiber (brown rice / white rice)
Nature's Finest has 3.2% (mixture of brown rice/ oats/ barley/ corn)

Canidae has 24% Protein
Nature's Finest has 25%

Canidae has 1.2A% Calcium
Nature's FInest has 1.5%

Out of 47 ingredients - Canidae
Out of 44 ingredients - Natures Finest

Omega 3 - Herring Meal is # 7 on list of ingredients for Canidae
Omega 3 - Herring meal is # 6 on Nature's Finest

Yucca is #27 on Canidae's list
Yucca is # #17 on Nature's Finest
(and they have recently added more yucca, so the website list is old)

Kelp is - none for Canidae
Kelp is #8 on Nature's FInest

Glucosamine - none for Canidae
Glucosamine - #18 on Nature's FInest


After disecting it like this, it looks like Canidae has a good marketing ploy with it's variety of ingredients, but Nature's FInest still wins my vote. Actually after disecting it like this, I don't know what to say. I thought Canidae was better too, but I'd have to say I feel REALLY good about what I'm feeding my dog.

I will admit comparing ingredients alone, that Canidae has more variety, and wholesome ingredients. I like that, although I am not willing to pay nearly $60 per bag! For half the price, think I've got better food and as I've indicated I try and fill the variety gaps with my veggie scraps.

If I were to choose the best, it would be raw. Which I will eventually switch too, but in the meantime I don not have the resource i.e. freezer. And I WILL change to that as my guy has a murmur, and I know that diet can change the overall outcome of that when I go to do his ultrasound next year.

Regardless that the bag is 33lbs, i feed only 3 cups/day (not 4) and our dogs are the same age. So more concentrate = less to feed. 33lbs, 40 lbs, do the math, and see that it works out to be about the same.

MTO, I just save my veggie scraps, or things that aren't so fresh in the fridge, throw it in the food processor and ya get slop. I add a few scoops to the odd meal. Also, ya have lots of $ saved to incorporate supplements without breaking the budget. THAT is where my logic behind my choice of food. I KNOW i'm filling the nutritional gaps by supplementing.

[brunie's mom]

The food still does not contain much meat.
It is getting the higher protein from all of the grains. I know that corn is not going to kill a dog. There is nothing wrong with the food you are feeding....and if your pup is doing well on it that's great.

You say your pup eats 3 cups? You also say that you feed raw meat and add other things? If I feed a BARF meal I do not give kibble or if I have just a couple of necks to add...I then cut back. My 6 year old, 78lbs. female eats less then 2 cups of Canidae per day. I guess Baxter needs the extra energy...he also weighs in at 78 lbs and he is 7 months old today. I will probably cut back when he slows down in growing. He does get alot of exercise....living out in the country and running a boarding kennel....he gets alot of walks and get's to play with any well behaved dog that he wants.

I agree, that BARF is probably the best diet for most dogs...I cannot at this time be feeding just BARF. I live in the middle of no-where and do not have a good steady, well priced supply of meats. If I get into town to the A&P...I clean up the shelves in the meat department of all chicken necks, backs, heart, etc. I also have a customer that brings me tripe....the dogs just love it.

Gina

[groupieindenial]

Originally Posted by brunie's mom

The food still does not contain much meat.
It is getting the higher protein from all of the grains.

Chicken meal is #1 ingredient on the list, how do you know HOW MUCH is actually in the food?? YOu can't say it is less than canidae just because there is corn meal in the list of ingredients. For filler/fiber corn is actually a good choice, cuz it has some (very little) protein. Canidae has white rice as #4 ingredient. I question the nutritional value of white rice. No protein, all starchy carbohydrate.

Originally Posted by brunie's mom

You say your pup eats 3 cups? You also say that you feed raw meat and add other things? If I feed a BARF meal I do not give kibble or if I have just a couple of necks to add...I then cut back.
I agree, that BARF is probably the best diet for most dogs...I cannot at this time be feeding just BARF. I live in the middle of no-where and do not have a good steady, well priced supply of meats. If I get into town to the A&P...I clean up the shelves in the meat department of all chicken necks, backs, heart, etc. I also have a customer that brings me tripe....the dogs just love it.

Gina

YAY HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO OUR DOGS!! well, exactly 7 mos. ALthough, it's been about amonth since I weighed him, I don't know exactly what he's weighing in at now....

I only feed raw once or twice a week, and I DO adjust his kibble, only a little bit. Also, if i were to do raw, I would not feed whole bones/backs whatever. I already know he can't digest bone, pukes it back up. They wouldn't get the goodness from bone unless it was ground up. I would have my butcher ground up all that with meat.

Anyways, I have done my research, utilized opinions of an in school homeopathic (soon to be) DR, which is currently a nutritionist who worked for a few years in a homeopathic clinic. Tired of having to prove the quality. Just because you've never heard of it, does not mean it is inferior food. (not you, just people in general. This food is not available in any stores. Fairly new company.)

[brunie's mom]

Originally Posted by groupieindenial

Chicken meal is #1 ingredient on the list, how do you know HOW MUCH is actually in the food?? YOu can't say it is less than canidae just because there is corn meal in the list of ingredients. For filler/fiber corn is actually a good choice, cuz it has some (very little) protein. Canidae has white rice as #4 ingredient. I question the nutritional value of white rice. No protein, all starchy carbohydrate.


Anyways, I have done my research, utilized opinions of an in school homeopathic (soon to be) DR, which is currently a nutritionist who worked for a few years in a homeopathic clinic. Tired of having to prove the quality. Just because you've never heard of it, does not mean it is inferior food. (not you, just people in general. This food is not available in any stores. Fairly new company.)

I think you should keep doing your research. Millions of Chinese and Japanese survive on a diet of white rice, there is alot of nutritional value in it.

There is a reason that the food you feed is almost half of the price of Canidae...it has ALOT of grains in it. Meats cost more.

Here are the first 6 ingredients of your food:
Take note...ingredients MUST be listed from the most to the least.

1) Chicken Meal
2) Gr. Brown Rice
3) Oats
4) Barley
5)Ground Yellow Corn
6) Chicken Fat

Out of the first 6 ingredients only ONE is meat.

Canidae
1) Chicken Meal
2) Turkey Meal
3)Brown Rice
4)White Rice
5) Lamb Meal
6)Chicken Fat
Out of the first 6 ingredients THREE are meat.

I have been studying animal nutrition for the last 12 years....not formally, but reading, buying nutrition books, joining canine nutrition lists. I study dog food labels like some people study sports stats.
I am not saying that Canidae is the be all and end all of dog food...there are some other good foods around. If your dog is doing well on the food you feed that is great. ...but please do not try to tell me that the more grains there are in a food and the less meat is better.

Gina

[spidey]

Out of the first 6 ingredients only ONE is meat.

The NUMBER of meat sources listed is irrelevant, the PERCENTAGE of meat is all that matters. Here is an example:
Hypothetical Food A's ingredients list: Chicken meal, white rice, barley, chicken fat, vitamins.
Hypothetical Food B's ingredients list: Chicken meal, turkey meal, herring meal, white rice, chicken fat.

Which is better? WE DON'T KNOW!! For all we know the actual meat percentages could break down like this:
Food A: 90% meat, 10% other ingredients
Food B: 10% meat, 90% other ingredients (all of which are individually lower in weight than the chicken meal, but which together comprise a much greater percentage of the food's total volume).

An extreme example, but it's really important to remember that while ingredients are listed in order of volume, unless we know the relative percentages which make up that volume, the list itself is meaningless. Chicken meal being listed first might well mean that most of the food is chicken meat, OR it could simply mean that the ingredients are all very close to each other in weight and that despite the fact that meats are listed first, the bulk of the actual nutrients come from grains.

[mto502]

Originally Posted by spidey

. Chicken meal being listed first might well mean that most of the food is chicken meat, OR it could simply mean that the ingredients are all very close to each other in weight and that despite the fact that meats are listed first, the bulk of the actual nutrients come from grains.

So how is one to tell ? From what I assume, this info is not disclosed on the bag?

[Bruce Lanthier]

I was under the impression that the ingredients are listed in order from the most to the least. Therefore the first ingredient is the one that makes up the largest single percentage of all the individual ingredients listed, and so on down the list. While spidey's explanation certainly is possible I would say it is not plausible. If the food is 24% protein I would assume the majority of that protein is derived from the multiple meats listed in the first 6 ingredients, to me a reasonable assumption. If there is only one meat source in the first 6 ingredients then I would assume that the majority of protein is not meat derived, to me a reasonable assumption. Certainly the ingredient list does not give you the details of the particular breakdown of the ingredients it does give you a reasonable breakdown when taken with the breakdown of the protein, fat, etc. percentages. I think it is safe to assume, when you are talking about super premium/premium foods, that when the first 6 ingredients have 3 meat sources that they also have a higher percentage of meat derived proteins as opposed to grain derived proteins.