The truth about corn

[blackandtan]

I was wondering if some people who really knew about dog nutrition and dog anatomy could chime in. I have read the posts and I know there are a lot of "armchair" nutritionists out there (including me), but I would really like someone who really knows about dog anatomy, digestive systems, etc to comment.

I have even seen posted that corn is not digestable by dogs. This is false.

It seems when anyone brings up a food that is not Canidae and has corn in it, it immediately is criticized and labeled an inferior food. People are so quick to always point out "it has corn". its probably one of the most cited reasons a food is labeled as not being "as good". So much so, I feel that some of the other good things in all these other foods get over looked.

After looking at the ingredients of many "super premium" feeds, a lot of them have corn. So I called them and talked to them. They have told me that corn is one of the best source of carbohydrates for dogs and if its is prepared and cooked properly, its a great source. They all agreed that if corn is used as a main ingredient or filler, its not a good thing. But none of the super premium pet food manufactueres do this.

I have been told that there are not as many dogs allergic to corn as we are lead to believe and dogs can be just as allergic to wheat products, barley, or even oatmeal. If your dog is allergic to any of these, its a bad food for your dog (including corn)

My bitch is on Canidae (by the way, Canidae has grain listed for the 3rd and 4th ingredients, which means that a lot of Canidae is grain based), but my male can not keep weight on with Canidae. He is a sport dog. I just wondered if people could comment more on foods that people ask about aside from the fact it has "corn"

I read an interesting article, I thought I would share snippets with you (yes..this is more armchair nutritionalism by me !):

"First, corn is one of the best natural sources of coat and skin conditioners like Omega 6. It has an overall digestibility is 90% and carbohydrate digestibility is 99%. In the instance of MANUFACTURER X use of whole corn, MANUFACTURER X grinds whole corn fresh for their products and they do not use any genetically engineered corn. It is bought from local farmers and no pesticides are applied from the day the seed is planted until the corn is picked. High quality whole corn is an excellent carbohydrate that is "used" as a carbohydrate source, not counted as protein source and it is not listed first on the ingredient panel. The fact is, legitimate research shows whole corn, to be considered very low on the list of foods that cause allergic reactions.

Before jumping on the bandwagon against corn used as a carbohydrate in a diet, you need to understand there is one cause for allergic reactions and that is a problem with an immune system. But there are many triggers for an "allergic type" reaction, some include: Genetic predisposition for Inhalant Atopic Dermatitis, Contact Dermatitis, Vaccines reactions (Purdue Study- Vaccine Mediated Responses), Candida Albicans (see Systemic Yeast Infections), Flea bite or Insect bite Determatitis, Thyroid and/or Hormones and in rare cases, food allergies.

Itchy skin is one of the most common complaints of pet owners but the reasons for itchy skin can be numerous.

Poor quality kibble
An unbalanced diet - raw, homemade or kibble
Over supplementing with vitamins, minerals and oils.
A disruption of a balanced kibble by adding vitamins, minerals and human foods
An unbalanced Omega 6:3 Ratio (when owners start adding oils to an already balanced diet.)
Missing dietary enzymes - lost in cooking and processing of food.
Allergies to foods
Intolerance to certain foods
Contact allergies to other substances such as detergent, carpet fresh, lawn sprays.
Suppressed immune function due to vaccines, medications and lack of variety in diet
Systemic Yeast Infections.

I think it is important to understand the difference between food allergies and food intolerance. A food intolerance will often cause a digestive 'upset' of some sort. A food allergy, on the other hand, causes an immune reaction when the offending substance is introduced." - end of article snippets

Vasko Vom Eschenhagen
SchH III, AD, BH, RTD, CGC, OFA
Winner of the 2004 Millenniums Wettkampf (Beating 40 of Germany's Best Dogs)
www.teamvasko.com

[Bruce Lanthier]

I was one of those that was anti corn but have learned some of what was posted above since my last conversation about it. One of my concerns though, and yes I am an armchair nutirionist (probably not even that LOL), but one of my concerns is that, while it may be a great source of carbohydrates, I don't think it or any grain for that matter should be the second or third ingredient on the list. IMO protein, meat protein, is a much bigger requirement for dogs than carbohydrates. Certainly there needs to be a proper balance but I think the balance requires a higher percentage of protein that carbs. Of course the dog's activities and activity level also dictate the diet so that must be taken into account also. Also make note that when "its is prepared and cooked properly, its a great source" must be taken into account also. High quality dog foods are baked these days and not subjected to the high temperatures of days past.

[Bruce Lanthier]

One other thing - I have also read that it matters which part of the corn is in the food. It is the kernal that has the nutritional value and not the outer coating, bran I think it is called. So if they are grinding up the whole thing then there is less nutritional value as opposed to cracking the corn, getting the kernals and using those. If I recall correctly, some companies take the kernals and sell them or use them elsewhere and just use the bran part in the food. That may be where we read that corn has no nutritional value, if they use the bran and not the kernal. So, while corn may be a good source of carbs, if used correctly, it can also be useless if used incorrectly. And if all we are talking about is delivering carbs to the dog there are better ways to do it. Rice IMO is a better way. So corn may not be the waste product I used to think it was it still isn't the best ingredient to serve the purpose of delivering carbs IMO.

[Bruce Lanthier]

Originally Posted by blackandtan

My bitch is on Canidae (by the way, Canidae has grain listed for the 3rd and 4th ingredients, which means that a lot of Canidae is grain based), but my male can not keep weight on with Canidae. He is a sport dog. I just wondered if people could comment more on foods that people ask about aside from the fact it has "corn"

Perhaps you should try something with more protein. Or cut back on the kibble and add meat (chicken, beef, fish).

[Judi W]

As far as where it ranks on the list of ingredients - please rethink how you all are using this for analysis. It is meaningless without percentages attached. I think of this everytime I hear a food touted because it has a longer list of meat ingredients listed.

I'll give a couple of exagerated examples:

Chicken 6%
Turkey 5%
Lamb 5%
Fish 3%
Total meat source: 19%

Grain 70%
Misc 11%

Chicken 28%
Grain 70%
Misc 2%

[brunie's mom]

Bruce is right. The dog food companies are using corn to make dog food higher in protein...they are not using corn as a source of carbs.
This is why Ol'Roy costs $12. bucks a bag...because corn is cheap , especially left over corn by-products that would be thrown away in the food industry anyway.

Most of the cheaper foods have corn meal, corn glutten meal, corn whey...etc. in them...nothing but the leftovers of the corn.

The only good super quality food that I can think of that uses corn in it is Wysong. It is a great food and they use the whole kernel corn ( the expensive part) . There may be another one or two of the good quality foods using corn, but I cannot think of any right now.

There is a reason for the cheap and super market and medium grade kibbles for using corn.....and it sure 'aint because it's good for dogs. It's MONEY !!!!! Keeping low costs.

I still think that corn is for cows.

I also have gotten many of my customers that were feeding poor quality food to their dogs and complaining about bad ears and itchy skin and smelly coats...to get their dogs off of corn based foods and onto higher quality meat based food. Everyone of them thanked me and were so happy to make the change.

I also think if your dog does not do well on Canidae...then get him on another food. Canidae is not the be all, end all of foods....there are many good foods out there and many new ones coming out. Innova has more calories then Canidae...or as Bruce suggests...feed some meat or tripe, etc....to get some weight on your dog and keep it on.

Gina

[blackandtan]

Originally Posted by Judi W

As far as where it ranks on the list of ingredients - please rethink how you all are using this for analysis. It is meaningless without percentages attached. I think of this everytime I hear a food touted because it has a longer list of meat ingredients listed.

I was just going off the ingredient list on Canidae's website. I am by no means knocking Canidae as I use it for one of my dogs. Its just a food I know a lot of you are familiar with.

I can't find where any dog food manufactures list how much protein is derivied from meat and how much from grain.

I just seems like a lot of the "super premium" foods list a grain as the 3rd ingredient and many as a 2nd ingredient. I am not saying grain is a bad thing, just would like to understand it more and how it relates to dogs, and it would be even better to relate it to how it relates to my dog who does Schutzhund work (short bursts of activity that can be stressful over 3 sessions a week that last about an hour vs a sled dog that bursts energy for long periods of time vs a dog that is just a pet and does nothing ).





Vasko Vom Eschenhagen
SchH III, AD, BH, RTD, CGC, OFA
Winner of the 2004 Millenniums Wettkampf (Beating 40 of Germany's Best Dogs)
www.teamvasko.com

[spidey]

Originally Posted by Judi W

As far as where it ranks on the list of ingredients - please rethink how you all are using this for analysis. It is meaningless without percentages attached. I think of this everytime I hear a food touted because it has a longer list of meat ingredients listed.

Thank you Judi! I think I've said this about ingredients lists two or three times here in the last few days alone!

Ingredients lists are useful only for seeing the overall content of the food, and getting a VERY rough idea of their proportions. The higher in the list an ingredient appears, the more there is of that than those ingredients lower in the list, but that's ALL. So a food like California Natural, which has a very short ingredients list and a single protein source, has grain as the second and third ingredients, regardless of how much of a percentage of the total volume they make up.

blackandtan, could you please post the source of the article you quoted?

[groupieindenial]

I was told that Corn Gluten Meal IS the inside darker yellow part of the corn, but that was by a Nutro rep at the pet store. Out of all the vegetable proteins available, corn seems to be a cheap good source, albeit still a filler. Corn is not all that nutritional for humans either, let alone canines who don't digest it as readily as humans (supposedly). Yes it is a good source of fibre (outer skin). If corn provides them with fibre, then even if the nutritional value is low, fibre is very usefull in absorbing fat (whole grains), and pushing out toxins from within the digestive tract.

However, I do not think that it is harmfull to add a bit of supplements, or blended scrap veggies with a bowl of kibble, or a meal of raw meat. Surely there is not enough vitamins and nutrients in their food.

Omega-3 (polyunsaturated fatty acids) are primarily found in cold water fish. I'm sure an overdose of anything can have bad affects, but a too much of Omega-3 is highly beneficial in disease countering benefits.

I too am no expert, especially in canine anatomy. But health and nutrition in general have common factors that make sense. Eating foods in its most natural state (less processed foods) are better, so why do i feed kibble? ( I don't have a big freezer yet)

K, a dogs veggie slop should be blended so they can absorb nutrients. And thats the key question with kibble, not percentage of content, but "IS the body actually absorbing any of it?", I'm always wondering, when I read dog food and treat labels and see good ingredients, is it soluble??? Probably not, but you'd hope so.

[Judi W]

A filler is something that provides no nutritional value.

Ground whole corn is very nutritious. Whole unground corn is not that easily digested, true, but I've yet to see whole unground corn in any dog food.

[blackandtan]

http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/the_corn_myth.htm

also some good snippets:

Randy Wysong DVM writes: "Allergy is a breakdown in the immune system as a result of years of improper feeding and care. Anyone who is feeding singular diets day in and day out is inviting allergic disaster. Animals naturally crave and need variety just as humans do. Food allergy may in fact be a mechanism in the body to attempt to force us to eat different foods. Variety is not only the spice of life - it is fundamental to health."

Albert Townshend DVM writes: "Food allergy is rare; other causes of GI and/or dematologic sign are more common and some may also respond (for nonallergeric reasons) to dietary manipulation. There are two types of unpleasant reactions to food. The first is an immunologic reaction (a true food allergy). The second is a nonimmunologic reaction (what is termed a food intolerance). Food intolerance are much more common. Allergic reactions do occur to corn, however, depending on the research cited, corn is not thought to be a very common allergen. At least not as high on the list as soybeans, beef, wheat, eggs or dairy products. Even rice has been found to cause allergic reactions in a rare few animals."


Vasko Vom Eschenhagen
SchH III, AD, BH, RTD, CGC, OFA
Winner of the 2004 Millenniums Wettkampf (Beating 40 of Germany's Best Dogs)
www.teamvasko.com

[brunie's mom]

It seems to me that this is what many of us have been saying for years on this forum. Try to feed a variety of different foods...even if you don't feed raw or home cook..you can change your dogs brand and type of kibble every 6 months or so. So many dogs eating the same food for years.

As far as it being allergies or sensitivities...they usually both cause problems to the dog....soy, wheat,beef bi-products as well as corn are most often found in cheap pet foods...because these ingredients are cheap...they are not in the food for any other reason then to bring up the protein contents on the bag.

Also on another thread that was posted here awhile ago..I think someone said that even the super premium foods could not contain more then 40% meat because the machines that make the kibble could not handle more then that.

The only real way you will be sure of the amounts of protein your dog gets is feeding raw (Barf diet) or a home cooked one. Every ingredient can be looked up for nutrition content.

Gina

[Judi W]

When you consider that most of the super premiums I have reviewed only have 24% protein, I believe you are being very optimistic about what they contain in the amount of meat regardless of processing requirements.

[rottsnroses]

I am hoping that the place where I buy food at will soon be carrying Timberwolf Organics. Their Wild and Natural Canid Formula is 34% protein, 18% fat and 609 kcal per cup. While I like what Canidae has done for my dogs, I want to have another quality kibble to rotate with.

From the Timberwolf website:

Wild & Natural ™ is a meat based formula that has over 10 lbs of Chicken and fish meal for every 20 lbs of dog food and includes several protein sources. The high levels of amino acids provide the building blocks necessary for a thick vibrant coat, healthy pink skin, a strong immune system and excellent muscle tone.

[spidey]

Originally Posted by Judi W

When you consider that most of the super premiums I have reviewed only have 24% protein, I believe you are being very optimistic about what they contain in the amount of meat regardless of processing requirements.

The average percentage of protein in most meats is only about 20-50% (lean turkey is the highest at nearly 80%), so 24% protein in a kibble wouldn't seem to indicate an abnormally low amount of meat content. An animal eating nothing but meat would still only be getting an average of 30% protein or so, depending on what meats it ate.