Probiotics

[rottnelmo]

Originally Posted by mjfish

rottnelmo--thanks for your reply! The cost is really driving me to switch at this point, and I hear you about the grain to protein ratio. Is there a "preferred" Probiotic?

Also, the vet recommended Vitamin C for our Rottie puppy (looks to be an HD candidate ). I know Ester C is the best form, but I don't want to overdo it with having Vitamin C in the food as well. What do you think? Right now, he is still on the O&M Puppy Pride, but I think I will switch over to Canidae after this bag.

This should probably be a different thread, but I feed Culturelle Probiotic and really like it. You start for seven days (one feeding only...I put my supplements in the morning feeding) then back off to 2 or 3 times per week. I also add an enzyme (pro-zyme) for digestion, which I feed every day right now, but I will back off to 3 to 5 times per week, depending on his stool.

Ester C should be feed VERY sparingly...like an 1/8 of a teaspoon and not every day. It is so concentrated. Very good for them though.

If he is HD canidate, you may want to feed a joint supplement, like glucosimine (sp) and chondriton. That would help the joints and ligamints along with the Ester C.

[mjfish]

Thanks once again rottnelmo! Was there something that prompted you to start feeding probiotics and pro-zyme, i.e. did Elmo have a digestive problem? Reason why I'm asking is because I'm wondering if supplementing with this is now recognized as needed, even if feeding superior kibble, or more based on an individual, as-needed basis. I am afraid of over supplementing at this point.

Anyone else add probiotics or enzymes to their pooch's meal? If so, what brand(s) do you use? Are you adding this to kibble or raw?

Thanks!

[MOKASMOM]

Yes I feed Moka Raw food and she gets enzyme (prozyme plus) with her food. She has a horrible digestive track.

[2rotties2luv]

Regarding Ester-C:

I'm not sure if it's more concentrated than regular vitamin C, I believe my vet said it's more easily absorbed, so you get the same blood levels while feeding a smaller amount. The maximum dosage (as given to me by my vet) is 25mg per pound per day. So, the MAXIMUM dosage for a 100 lb dog would be 2500mg per day. However, the maximum dosage depends also on how much the dog can tolerate. Maddy, who weighs 70lbs and has HD, gets 1000mg per day (500mg tablet at each meal), while Jazz who weighs 110 lbs and has mild arthritis of old age, can only tolerate 500mg per day. If I try to give them more, they get diarrhea.

[rottnelmo]

Originally Posted by mjfish

Thanks once again rottnelmo! Was there something that prompted you to start feeding probiotics and pro-zyme, i.e. did Elmo have a digestive problem? Reason why I'm asking is because I'm wondering if supplementing with this is now recognized as needed, even if feeding superior kibble, or more based on an individual, as-needed basis. I am afraid of over supplementing at this point.

Anyone else add probiotics or enzymes to their pooch's meal? If so, what brand(s) do you use? Are you adding this to kibble or raw?

Thanks!

I have ALWAYS feed a probiotic is aids in digestion and good belly flora. I changed from the probiotic I was using it was more of a prebiotic, so I wanted a true probiotic. You can also find probiotics in health food stores in the refridgerated section. The only non-refridgerator pro is Culturelle. Which I got from my vet, but you can probably get it at a health food store too.

I added the enzyme because of his stool was not firming the way it should after a bout with intestinal distress. I will not continue the prozyme after a month or so...unless he needs it.

If you feed raw you should feed an enzyme to help aid with the digestion.

Ester C ~ yes, it is more concentrated and yes it does absorb faster and easier, that is why it should be fed in limited quanities.

[Annacakes]

Here is an article on why you should not regularly supplement with vitamin C. It makes sense to me. I hope you find it at least informational or helpful.

Why adding Vitamin C to your dog's diet is
not always a wise thing to do…(This article is also available as a simple text file version)
The dog's internal production of Vitamin C (Ascorbic Acid)
In their bodies, dogs produce about 40 milligrams of this vitamin per kilogram
bodyweight - or 18 milligrams per pound. A 40-pound dog thus produces the
equivalent of about two big tablets (500 milligrams) per day! A dog the size of a
human would produce about 6-8 of those big 500-mg tablets per day - a huge dose,
even compared to what a human needs!

Research has shown that, for dogs as well as for people, a large overdose of Vitamin
C can significantly boost the immune system and help the body to a fast healing of
many injuries.

Form there, it makes sense to conclude that extra Vitamin C is good for people. But
it does not make sense to make the same conclusion for dogs…
Some fundamental body chemistry
In order to understand this, you need to understand some fundamentals of
chemistry. Let consider two chemicals, A and B, who react with each other to
produce the products C and D. Let's assume we have a nice equilibrium with A and B
in balance with C and D:
A + B
C + D
This means that every time a molecule of A meets a molecule of B, they may
combine and produce C and D - or depart again as A and B. Same thing with C and
D. When two representatives of them meet, they may react with each other and regenerate
A and B. But they could also remain C and D. We have equilibrium when
we cannot measure any changes of the total concentrations of any of the four
chemicals. That equilibrium is maintained through a constant chemical activity
through two reactions that exactly oppose each other.
When we have achieved equilibrium, we can watch what happens when we add more
of A to the mixture of the four: This will greatly increase the chances of a B molecule
meeting an A molecule, so we will have a greater likelihood of B molecules reacting
with A molecules. The result of this will be that our addition of A will consume a big
chunk of what was left of B - and produce more of C and D!
But if we instead add a large amount of C, then the process will "run the other way",
and the excess amount of C will react with a big portion of D to generate more of
both A and B.
So, in essence, when we add C, the result in the body is a reduction of D!
The problem with supplementing…
The bad news is that we do not know in detail the specific chemical reactions in the
dog's body that produce Ascorbic Acid, which could be chemical C in our example
above. We also do not know what other chemicals are generated along with Ascorbic
Acid in the process - the D's are unknown. Some of them could be very important
for the dog's metabolism, though - we don't know!
But we do know that, whatever those D's are, they will cease to be produced when
we add significant amounts of Vitamin C to our dog's diet! And we do know that
when we constantly supply Vitamin C to a dog, it will shut down its own ability to
generate this vitamin, maybe permanently.
Getting the perspective right
Now, 18 milligrams per pound body weight is quite a lot... You cannot feed enough
fresh fruits to ever reach more than about few percent of that! So, feeding fresh fruit
will not cause a shutdown of the body's internal productions.
However, there are many people who have seen great effects of using Vitamin C
supplementation in large doses to deal with a specific problem, like an infection or
injury, and they then conclude that it is great to continue doing it....
On a temporary basis, this can be OK. But the chemical laws involved in this are as
fundamental as gravity - there are NO EXCEPTIONS! The danger, of cause, is that
you may not see the effects of the shutdown immediately - in fact, you might not see
it until many months or years later, and then you will have no clue about connecting
the problem to your supplementing an unnecessary ingredient.
The bottom line is that you should NOT add vitamin C to a dog's diet at all, unless
you have a very specific acute target (infection, injury) as the reason. In those cases,
please help your dog fight the infections faster by giving it some huge amounts of
Vitamin C over the few days it takes to get well - and then stop the supplementing
again! Use it as you would take antibiotics for yourself.
Mogens Eliasen
-------------------------------------------
Mogens Eliasen holds a Ph.D. level degree in Chemistry from Århus University, Denmark and has 30+
years of experience working with dogs, dog owners, dog trainers, and holistic veterinarians as a coach,
lecturer, and education system developer. He publishes a free newsletter "The Peeing Post" containing lots
of tips and advice on dog problems of all kinds, particularly about training, behavioral problems, feeding,
and health care.
For more information about Mogens Eliasen, including links to other articles he has published, please send
a short e-mail to contact@k9joy.com.

[rottsnroses]

Interesting article Annacakes, and pretty much says exactly what my vet told me about vitamin C. That only a few breeds (rottweilers are not one of them) who do not manufacture vitamin C in sufficient amounts on their own, and that regular supplementation shuts down the body's natural ability to manufacture it.

[rottnelmo]

Originally Posted by Annacakes

Here is an article on why you should not regularly supplement with vitamin C. It makes sense to me. I hope you find it at least informational or helpful.

Why adding Vitamin C to your dog's diet is
not always a wise thing to do…(This article is also available as a simple text file version)
The dog's internal production of Vitamin C (Ascorbic Acid)
In their bodies, dogs produce about 40 milligrams of this vitamin per kilogram
bodyweight - or 18 milligrams per pound. A 40-pound dog thus produces the
equivalent of about two big tablets (500 milligrams) per day! A dog the size of a
human would produce about 6-8 of those big 500-mg tablets per day - a huge dose,
even compared to what a human needs!

Research has shown that, for dogs as well as for people, a large overdose of Vitamin
C can significantly boost the immune system and help the body to a fast healing of
many injuries.

Form there, it makes sense to conclude that extra Vitamin C is good for people. But
it does not make sense to make the same conclusion for dogs…
Some fundamental body chemistry
In order to understand this, you need to understand some fundamentals of
chemistry. Let consider two chemicals, A and B, who react with each other to
produce the products C and D. Let's assume we have a nice equilibrium with A and B
in balance with C and D:
A + B
C + D
This means that every time a molecule of A meets a molecule of B, they may
combine and produce C and D - or depart again as A and B. Same thing with C and
D. When two representatives of them meet, they may react with each other and regenerate
A and B. But they could also remain C and D. We have equilibrium when
we cannot measure any changes of the total concentrations of any of the four
chemicals. That equilibrium is maintained through a constant chemical activity
through two reactions that exactly oppose each other.
When we have achieved equilibrium, we can watch what happens when we add more
of A to the mixture of the four: This will greatly increase the chances of a B molecule
meeting an A molecule, so we will have a greater likelihood of B molecules reacting
with A molecules. The result of this will be that our addition of A will consume a big
chunk of what was left of B - and produce more of C and D!
But if we instead add a large amount of C, then the process will "run the other way",
and the excess amount of C will react with a big portion of D to generate more of
both A and B.
So, in essence, when we add C, the result in the body is a reduction of D!
The problem with supplementing…
The bad news is that we do not know in detail the specific chemical reactions in the
dog's body that produce Ascorbic Acid, which could be chemical C in our example
above. We also do not know what other chemicals are generated along with Ascorbic
Acid in the process - the D's are unknown. Some of them could be very important
for the dog's metabolism, though - we don't know!
But we do know that, whatever those D's are, they will cease to be produced when
we add significant amounts of Vitamin C to our dog's diet! And we do know that
when we constantly supply Vitamin C to a dog, it will shut down its own ability to
generate this vitamin, maybe permanently.
Getting the perspective right
Now, 18 milligrams per pound body weight is quite a lot... You cannot feed enough
fresh fruits to ever reach more than about few percent of that! So, feeding fresh fruit
will not cause a shutdown of the body's internal productions.
However, there are many people who have seen great effects of using Vitamin C
supplementation in large doses to deal with a specific problem, like an infection or
injury, and they then conclude that it is great to continue doing it....
On a temporary basis, this can be OK. But the chemical laws involved in this are as
fundamental as gravity - there are NO EXCEPTIONS! The danger, of cause, is that
you may not see the effects of the shutdown immediately - in fact, you might not see
it until many months or years later, and then you will have no clue about connecting
the problem to your supplementing an unnecessary ingredient.
The bottom line is that you should NOT add vitamin C to a dog's diet at all, unless
you have a very specific acute target (infection, injury) as the reason. In those cases,
please help your dog fight the infections faster by giving it some huge amounts of
Vitamin C over the few days it takes to get well - and then stop the supplementing
again! Use it as you would take antibiotics for yourself.
Mogens Eliasen
-------------------------------------------
Mogens Eliasen holds a Ph.D. level degree in Chemistry from Århus University, Denmark and has 30+
years of experience working with dogs, dog owners, dog trainers, and holistic veterinarians as a coach,
lecturer, and education system developer. He publishes a free newsletter "The Peeing Post" containing lots
of tips and advice on dog problems of all kinds, particularly about training, behavioral problems, feeding,
and health care.
For more information about Mogens Eliasen, including links to other articles he has published, please send
a short e-mail to contact@k9joy.com.

I believe that if you read my posts, you would find that I said Ester C should be fed in limited quantities. I ONLY feed a small pinch of it less than a 1/4 teaspoon to Elmo when I am detoxing...then only for a week. Works wonders.

[mjfish]

Thanks everyone for your input!

Great article Annacakes! I had no idea that dogs produced so much Vit C! So I guess I won't give any extra unless an injury/system failure occurs that warrants feeding it.

As to the probios, if his "output" () seems OK now, is it still needed? Is there some other way to gage digestion so as to know if he needs it?

[Diane Heller-Vaccaro]

I will stop using the Vitamin C immediately. This is an excellent article. My puppy has slight, ever so slight hair missing on his eyelids. A few weeks back someone asked me if he was an indoor dog and he is totally unless he has to go to the bathroom. We are working on this but I can't get him to stay outside by himself he will be 5 months old tomorrow. Anyway she said it can be caused by a lack of Vitamin D.

Thanks Annacakes for giving us this info.