Balanced diet and what you feed...

[chuss]

Ok, I thought i'd start a new thread about this topic. The discussion started in the garlic thread I posted.

What do we all feed our dogs and how do we know if it's "balanced". I know there are opinions, theorys, books, etc.. But how do we know if we're feeding the right amount of "x" to our beloved ones?

Obviously, some dogs don't like particular foods, dogs are different sizes, some more active than others and there are a zillion other things to consider.

I feed my dog a combo of meat, veggies, rice and BARF. People say it's not balanced, but when you compare that to tinned foods and kibble, it's a lot better.
Tinned food contains "meat by-products, etc.... "
Kibble contains "grains, meat by-products.."
Along with all the other questionable stuff that is added. I know i'm feeding my dog "real" meat and other products.

Us humans all don't eat a "balanced" diet, some do. I eat all types of meats, veggies, breads, cereals, oils and sugars over the week. I don't know if i'm getting enough or too much of it, but I do know that I'm healthy, rarely see the doctor, am fit and feel good.
My dog appears to be the same...

So the question is, what do you feed your dog and how do you know it's balanced? Is there a "right" or "wrong" way to feed them?

comments peoples.:)

[spidey]

People say it's not balanced, but when you compare that to tinned foods and kibble, it's a lot better.

Tinned food contains "meat by-products, etc.... "
Kibble contains "grains, meat by-products.."

I linked a bunch of super-premium dog food manufacturers in that other thread. Please read them if you're truly interested in discussing this topic. We're not likely to get very far if you make statements like the ones above which are categorically untrue. For starters, nowhere in the ingredients lists for Artemis, Canidae, Innova, and other super-premium foods will you see meat by-products.

How you feed your dog is a matter of choice, people have strong feelings about it, however I do think that good discussions can be had about this topic as long as people are reasonable and open-minded about it. That said, making a blanket statement that your chosen method is "a lot better" than "tinned foods and kibble", without specifically stating WHICH tinned foods and kibble you're talking about, and what you mean by "better", is dooming the discussion to failure from the get-go. All commercial foods are NOT the same, just as all home-prepared diets are not the same. Dismissing all commercial foods out of hand as if something like Innova (with human-grade specifically-identified meats) is the same quality as Old Roy (with corn and unidentified meat by-products) implies that you haven't based your opinion about the superiority of your chosen diet on much research. By all means feed what you choose, but please don't assume that your diet is categorically better than the high quality commercial diets many people here feed (after doing much research), when you clearly haven't done any research into the wide range of quality available in commercial diets. In short, it may behoove you not to tell people that your diet is better than theirs when you don't even know anything about what they're feeding.

A home-prepared diet is not "better" than a commercial food simply by virtue of who does the preparing. One diet is quantifiably better than another by virtue of the quality of the ingredients, the appropriateness of their inclusion in a dog's diet and their proportions to one another, regardless of who mixes it up (and all of this is subject to endless argument even by canine nutritionists). Please also note that diet is just one ingredient of overall health, it's far from the only factor. Your diet is probably a "lot better" than Purina Dog Chow, I doubt that it's a "lot better" than a super-premium food (it may be the same quality as a super-premium, but I very much doubt that it's a "lot better"). Also, "better" is a relative term, many many dogs have lived long healthy lives eating what many consider lousy food, and many have had their lives cut short due to illness even after eating only the "best" food (for vaying values thereof) - correlation does not equal causation. Please also keep in mind that there is not much real evidence in this area, that almost everything in the raw/cooked/commercial diet debate is based on opinion, theory and conjecture. I don't think there are many truly "correct" answers to this question. :)

[Carina43]

Welll...I dunno. :)
One thing I've found is there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of agreement, even among the "experts" on many facets of feeding. It gets even more diverse when you just look at what the raw feeding/home cooked experts (I'm talking vets & nutritionists here, people who have studied & written books & lecture & what have you) - they don't agree on a whole lot at all! So are they all right...all wrong...and just how does one know?

My opinion is there are a whole range of diets that may work for various dogs. There was a story in Michigan papers last summer about a Schnauzer mix who was 23 years old, healthy, and had never eaten meat - rice and cooked vegetables, just like the vegetarian owner. This was confirmed by the vet. I have a friend with a 22 year old little brown mutt who has eaten Alpo his entire life, he wouldn't even touch other brands. Of course you can't extrapolate from individual dogs, but obviously "inappropriate" diets DO work for some dogs. And we all know of dogs who eat premium or raw diets who still have chronic illnesses, or die young.

Sometimes I think there's too much emphasis put on food and what we put in our own - and our pets' - mouths.

Sorry, I know that's sort of a non-answer!

BTW, I see nothing wrong with meat by-products. It's much of what my dogs eat - I sure don't feed them steaks!

[Rott-Wiley]

Originally posted by chuss
I feed my dog a combo of meat, veggies, rice and BARF. People say it's not balanced, but when you compare that to tinned foods and kibble, it's a lot better.

Just because you cook up a bunch of things for your dog doesn't mean it is better then feeding a balanced diet. I was one of the ones that said what you're feeding isn't balanced and I think in a long run you may be doing more harm than good in that diet.

All the experts can agree that a dog needs certain things in their diet to be healthy. The source and proportion of those things are what they can't seem to agree on. But from reading what you do feed, it doesn't seem like you have any organization to what it is at all. Some cooked meat (4 ½ lb. I think), some cooked veggies (again 4 ½ lbs) and a cup of rice or pasta? Plus some raw meaty bones. By cooking the veggies you are reducing them to mostly filler that will pass through the dogs system because the heating process will destroy most of the vitamins and minerals. The pasta or rice will provide carbohydrates but in what proportion??? What about calcium and phosphorous in the ratio of 1.3 to 1.8?

In a post you made prior to this, you said you had been feeding an awful lot more carbohydrates then you said in your last post.

[chuss]

Rott-Wiley.

I used to feed her too much carbohydrates, that's why I have reduced it considerably.

My original question was "what do you feed your dog and how do you know it's balanced? Is there a "right" or "wrong" way to feed them?"

I'm trying to gauge what more or less of something I should be giving my dog, or if I need to add some food items to her diet.
That's why I want to know what people feed their dog and get a good idea of what types of food groups to give.

[Carina43]

To answer your question, since I didn't before:

60% RMBs/bone-in-meat: chicken backs, whole ground rabbit, pork necks/shoulder blades, etc.
20% boneless meat: beef heart & ground turkey, mostly.
Balance is pulped vegetables - I make big batches once or twice a month & freeze. Canned mackerel or salmon. Occasionally rice or oatmeal. A little yoghurt, some eggs. Minimal table scraps.

I supplement, but not much. Vit C - perhaps 500mg daily (powdered, so I'm not sure.) Vit E & fish oil caps, which they eat like treats, but I'm sporadic about that.

Real purist experts like Lonsdale say meat & bone is all they need, vegetables & supplements are OK but unecessary. Others (Billinghurst, Schultze, et al) outline a diet like what I feed.

I don't KNOW that it's balanced - all most of us can do is rely on "experts" whether we're feeding raw, cooked, commercial, kibble, whatever. The raw diet I feed is basically one followed by the majority of folks who feed raw, most of who follow the Billinghurst model.

Based on the commonly accepted home-prepared diets out there, I would say you are feeding too many vegetables - but I'm not an expert either! I've read every raw diet book on the market (I suggest you read a couple, just for your own edumacation :) ) as well as many of the literature on cooked diets. Plus I've talked to many people, IRL & on the internet - most of the trainers at both training facilities feed raw, and I know a couple of breeders around here who have done so for years.

[Rott-Wiley]

chuss, I keep answering your question and post what I do feed. I've done that twice already, that's why I didn't think it was necessary to do it again but I guess I do.

I feed the diet outlined in the book, "Holistic Guide for a Healthy Dog" by Volhard and Brown, D.V.M. It is a raw meat diet (including chicken, turkey, beef and organ meats) combined with raw fresh veggies run through a juicer. I alternate her AM meal with 3 days of yogurt, 2 days of cottage cheese, and 2 days of raw eggs. I also supplement with Safflower oil, vitamin C and B, human grade bone meal, wheat germ, honey, Blackstrap molasses, kelp and Cod-liver oil. And 4 oz of Innova. One day a week she gets 2 cans of sardines in spring water. At least once a week she gets scraps of cooked fish, usually salmon or sword fish.

As part of the AM meal I also give one of the following: water melon, honey due, cantaloupe or apple. The only one of these that I juice is the apple.

I also add Steve's Real Food, all of the above is human grade food that I buy in the grocery store with the acceptation of the Innova.

I juice the veggies once or twice a week and freeze the juice and the pulp in an ice cube tray. I try to always include broccoli, carrot, cabbage and garlic. Sometimes I include: beets, green & yellow beans, parsnips, squash, leeks, kale, collard greens, Brussels sprouts or cauliflower.

[Homerhomer]

The diet we use is based on Billinghurst.
Approx 80-85% of this would be rmb: chicken necks/backs, turkey necks, pork necks, with chicken being the biggest part of the diet.
The remaining portion is made up of veggie glop (usually 10-15 different veggetables and fruits, whatever is on special but I make sure at least a third of it is green leafy veggies like spinach), then I try to make the glop more tasty so I add variety of things and at any given day it could be: canned fish, raw egg with shell, extra virgin olive oil, diary products, and all kinds of table scraps in small amounts.
Supplements I use are ester C, E, multivitamins, fish oils, all in small amounts.
Once in a while I fast the dog for a day (skip the rmb meal).
And I don't see a need to know the exact breakdowns of fats, carbs etc etc in the diet (the same goes for my own diet).

[Birdie'sMom]

Originally posted by chuss
I feed my dog a combo of meat, veggies, rice and BARF. People say it's not balanced, but when you compare that to tinned foods and kibble, it's a lot better.

I feed Birdie Canidae. Here are the ingredients. Please tell me how yours is more balanced. How can you know, anyway - do you have the break downs? Do you even have a set amount that you give everytime or do you just throw something together?

CHICKEN MEAL, TURKEY MEAL, BROWN RICE, WHITE RICE, LAMB MEAL, CHICKEN FAT, ( PRESERVED WITH MIXED TOCOPHEROLS AND ASORBIC ACID ,VIT.E & C ), FISH MEAL, FLAX SEED, DEHYDRATED ALFALFA MEAL ,SUNFLOWER OIL , LECITHIN , BREWERS YEAST , NATURAL FLAVORS, MONOSODIUM PHOSPHATE , CHOLINE, LINOLEIC ACID, ROSEMARY EXTRACT, SAGE EXTRACT , FERROUS SULFATE , DL - ALPHA TOCOPHEROL (SOURCE OF VITAMIN E) ZINC OXIDE, SODIUM SELENITE, MANGANOUS OXIDE, RIBOFLAVIN SUPPLEMENT ( SOURCE OF B2), YEAST CULTURE, DRIED ASPERGILLUS NIGER FERMENTATION EXTRACT, DRIED ASPERGILLUS ORYZAE FERMENTATION EXTRACT, DRIED LACTOBACILLUS ACIDIPHILUS FERMENTATION PRODUCT, DRIED STREPTOCOCCUS FAECIUM FERMENTATION PRODUCT, ZINC AMINO ACID CHELATE, MANGANESE AMINO ACID CHELATE, COPPER AMINO ACID CHELATE, COBALT AMINO ACID CHELATE, IRON AMINO ACID CHELATE, NIACIN, VITAMIN B12 SUPPLEMENT, VITAMIN A SUPPLEMENT, CALCIUM PANTOTHENATE , D-BIOTIN SUPPLEMENT, PYRIDOXINE HYDROCHLORIDE (VITAMIN B6) , CALCIUM , IODATE, THIAMINE MONONITRATE , FOLIC ACID , PAPAIN , BACILLUS SUBTILI , ASPERGILLUS NIGER , YUCCA SCHIDIGERA EXTRACT.

GUARANTEED ANALYSIS:
Crude Protein - (Minimum) 24 %
Crude Fat - (Minimum) 14.5 %
Crude Fiber - (Maximum) 4 %
Moisture - (Maximum) 10 %
Omega-6 Fatty Acids - (Minimum) 3.20 %
Omega-3 Fatty Acids - (Minimum) .60 %
Linoleic Acid - (Minimum) 3.70 %
Vitamin E - (Minimum) 200 IU/KG
ME (kcal/lb) 1865 - ME ( kcal/cup) 466.25
Amylase (From Aspergillus Niger) - MIN. 950 BAU/ lb
Xylanase (From Aspergillus Oryzae) - MIN. 136 XU/ lb

[CarolineS]

Originally posted by chuss

So the question is, what do you feed your dog and how do you know it's balanced? Is there a "right" or "wrong" way to feed them?

I feed a cooked diet to my dogs. There has been a lot of research done into what dogs' nutritional requirements are and the National Research Council published a set of minimum daily requirements. This is what I use to gauge if my dogs are getting what they need. There are other standards but they are mainly for the dog food industry and measure nutrients on a dry matter basis. This isn't something I can work with since I feed fresh foods. The NRC is supposed to be publishing more up-to-date requirements some time this year, but until they do, I've been using the current ones with no problems.

I have a spreadsheet that contains all the nutrients in just about every food my dogs eat. The spreadsheet shows me how much of every vitamin and mineral they get, how much fat, how much protein, even down to the individual amino acids if I'm interested. It's just a spreadsheet I made up myself with help from the USDA Nutrient Database and the NRC requirements. It's a bit of a "dog's breakfast" and no one but me could figure out what's going on on it, but it does the trick. If the dogs are short in any nutrients, I use supplements. With a cooked diet, you always need to add a source of calcium and a multi-vitamin is a good idea too.

I don't think there is any "right" or "wrong" diet for a dog. There are only balanced diets and unbalanced diets, be they commercial, cooked or raw. I also happen to think that dogs are marvellous scavengers and incredibly adaptable nutritionally which is probably why we hear stories like the ones Carina told.

[Carol Burke]

I feed completely raw, no grain. For a 100lb, 3 yr old dog I feed:
AM 3 chicken backs
PM 1 1/2 cups of Vegtable mixture put through my
food processor and containing the folloing:
Green Beans, Carrots, Sweet Potatoes, Apples, Oranges,
Collard Greens, Tomatoes, Summer Squash, Garlic, Beef
Heart or Kidney, Chicken Liver, Eggs(including shells).
I also add 1/4lb of hamburger.

I give a multi vitamin, Prozyme, Vitamin C, yeast, Glyco Flex, and either Olive Oil, Safflower Oil or Flaxseed Oil.

I have been feeding this diet for 4 years and am happy with it. Occasionaly I give beef rib bones or pork necks for recreational chewing.

My dogs are all in excellent health, bloodwork is always normal.

[moondog]

Originally posted by CarolineS
I feed a cooked diet to my dog(s). I have a spreadsheet that contains all the nutrients in just about every food my dog(s) eat. The spreadsheet shows me how much of every vitamin and mineral they (she) get(s), how much fat, how much protein, even down to the individual amino acids if I'm interested. It's just a spreadsheet I made up myself with help from the USDA Nutrient Database and the NRC requirements. It's a bit of a "dog's breakfast" and no one but me could figure out what's going on on it, but it does the trick. If the dog(s) are short in any nutrients, I use supplements. With a cooked diet, you always need to add a source of calcium and a multi-vitamin is a good idea too.

My methodology exactly. :)