Possible diet to hopefully stave off cancers?

[chivas]

After losing my most wonderful girl to osteo and doing ALOT of research, I think I have come up with a good diet for any future rotties (or any dogs mostly likely). I would like input on this diet please, as it is hit and miss.

Base food - canidae
with organic beef or buffalo added - not more then 2-3 oz a feeding - raw (to keep the dogs natural ability to overcome certain bacterias, etc)
extra vitamin C - 1000mg daily (to help dogs immune system)
raw chicken periodly - 1-2 times a week for same reasons as beef
anti oxidants - to help dog fight off free radicals


Id like some imput from people with more experience then i - but please remember I am looking at the diet as a possible means to deter this wonderful breed from developing cancer - as it is so heartbreakingly prevelant in our breed.
Kim

[ptremaine]

Diets don't prevent or stave off cancer. In humans or dogs. Please consult the National Institutes of Health website [which contains the Nat'l Cancer site too] and do some real research into this as I have for a very personal reason: I have it inside my head. I'm sorry for your loss, but it's just not realistic to think that raw meat [organic or not] and a kibble and extra vit. C will prevent cancer. I've known many dogs who ate extra special diets of this sort and they died too. Of cancer.

Cancer is more closely linked to environmental pollutants than to diets. Do your homework and you'll find this out. Living in a place where the soil is toxic or using pesticides on your lawn or having the dog walk where they're used is more dangerous than feeding it something. My husband has access to government reports on Superfund and brown field sites in our state. If people bothered to find out from their useless greedy politicians where those sites were before buying a home on top of an old toxic site, they'd probably prevent cancer in themselves and loved ones.

Also, if you live near high tension power lines or on a farm with pesticides, your exposure to cancer is much higher than eating chcken or beef from a regular grocery store [non-organic]. Did you know that most organic foods [veggies, fruits] have as high levels of toxic chemicals as do the nonorganic sort? It's because teh food is still grown in land that was once tilled with pesticides, which do NOT degrade in that soil. So caveat emptor.

PT

PS: If I sound gloomy, it's because I've good cause - I've read EPA reports, other reliable gov't reports and many medical studies and research from the best minds in medicine and research today. Our world is polluted folks, deal with it and next time you vote for a Republican, remember that they're the party who doesn't think your health and environmental pollution is a topic they want to talk about, much less deal with...[shameless plug from an anti-rightwinger]. If you vote for them, you vote against your own health and that of loved ones.

[spidey]

I hate to say it, but I agree with PT. There isn't any real evidence that diet can do much about cancer - factors like genetics and environment play a much bigger role than that of diet. Some current thinking is that some forms of cancer (remember also that "cancer" is a multitude of diseases with things in common, not one disease, so it's unlikely that there's any one preventative measure which could work against all forms of cancer) are genetic and have little to do with any external factors whatsoever. As long as you feed a balanced, healthy diet, keep the dog at an appropriate weight, and provide plenty of clean water and exercise, I think you'll be doing as much as you can. I don't agree with megadoses of vitamins, myself, there's no hard evidence that they help, and some evidence they harm. A dog eating a well-balanced diet shouldn't need vitamins unless they have a deficiency. Also, remember that just because you lost your last dog to cancer is no reason to assume you'll lose your next one to cancer, they're all different. The fact is that the breed (along with others, like Boxers) is very prone to cancer (this fact alone points to a genetic factor). Diet isn't likely to change that, it's much more likely that your next dog is either going to get it, or it isn't, regardless of any other factors. I don't mean to sound gloomy either, but this is the conclusion I've come to, going by the research I've done. Good luck with your next dog! :)

[mmgy]

I agree with all three of you.

I'm currently doing battle with the fifth bout of cancer in a brother/sister pair of 3/4 rotts. Rocky had cancer three times, age 7 1/2, age 8 1/2 and age 9. He died at 10. Delilah nearly died last Christmas, and it's come back. She is 12 1/2. I know I can't prevent cancer, but I believe I can help how the body manages it, at least temporarily.

As a pet owner, I feel Kim's need to "do something", and sometimes your only option is diet. My "dog food epiphany" occurred right about Rocky's third diagnosis. Surgery was not an option. I changed everything, threw out all my old conventions. His general health improved immediately, he gained weight and felt great. Rocky outlived everyone's predictions by 5 months.

I changed Delilah's diet at the same time. Do I think that act put off her getting cancer until an older age? No. But I think I improved her general health, so that she could better fight it when it came her way. Now, I fear that battle is winding down, but I think I've made an impact.

At the very least, it has made me feel better about my role as an owner and caretaker. You have to balance the emotional with the factual, and in the end, be comfortable in your own skin.

Mary Mac

[Homerhomer]

links to some studies linking food and cancer
http://ca.google.yahoo.com/bin/query...grains+swedish

[spidey]

As a pet owner, I feel Kim's need to "do something", and sometimes your only option is diet.

You have to balance the emotional with the factual, and in the end, be comfortable in your own skin.

Normally I agree with you, but here I'm afraid I don't :) . I hear the point you're making, but IMO there's never an excuse for doing something for the sake of an emotional desire which has no proven benefit and which can potentially be harmful (like megadosing vitamins or eschewing the most effective painkillers in terminal illnesses because of fear of (irrelevant) organ damage). I don't think there's anything wrong with "can't hurt/might help" therapies (when they're used as well as, but not instead of, proven therapies), nor do I think there's anything wrong with last-ditch efforts (as long as quality of life is paramount), but I do think that there's something fundamentally wrong with ignoring the facts to feed your emotional needs, I accept that it may just be me, but I find something seriously wrong with self-delusion. I hear the need to "do something", but I don't think you do yourself or your dog any favours by ignoring the facts. I think you can meet your emotional needs in other, more emotionally healthy, ways. And I think that sometimes it's more important for the long-term mental health and frustration level of the owner to accept that there are some things they can't do much about, so that they can concentrate on the things they CAN do something about. None of this means that I disagree with working toward formulating the best possible diet for any dog, of course, but I would concentrate my efforts on those things which are proven to be effective and/or not potentially harmful. Oh, and there are some serious questions about the conclusions of that Swedish study (as the fourth link there outlines).

[joquendo]

I beg to differ... I am sure now that many people are unaware of ther eason why cancer occurs in the first place in both humans and dogs... the BASIC fundamentals is the body is not functioning correctly in order to stave of cells as they change, as cells become abnormal they begin to change and eventually often turn into cancer. The reason for this is the poor immune system - a strong healthy immune system WILL AND HAS been the result of staving off cancers.. I can attest right now to probably 5/6 cases where alternative treatment was used which among other things involved changing the diet to include substances which build the immune system... anyone heard of IP6? Enzymatic therapy, Soy treatment, rife????? these dogs are now still around - again a friend of mine was given 5 months to live in March because doctors told her she was dying with colon cancer and ovarian cancer. she immediately sought alternative treatment, which involved alternating her nutrition in the body to build the immune system - (using the above treatments) today her cancer cell count has gone down from 275 to 30 as of last week... so all those of you who don't believe it - I pity you because you are not providing yourself any other alternatives due to closed minds especially as we KNOW that alternative success treatments exist..... come on now, open up your mind and begin to look further than the end of your nose...

[Major]

Please keep the debate civil.

[Patinka]

I agree with Major.
Please keep an open mind.... and be nice.:)

[spidey]

a strong healthy immune system WILL AND HAS been the result of staving off cancers.

It's entirely possible that the immune system has something to do with it, but the fact is that to date there is no scientific evidence to back up the above claim (cancerous cells are normal body cells which don't self-destruct when they should, and, because they're normal body cells which just happen to be multiplying out of control, the immune system ignores them, you don't want the immune system attacking normal body cells, that's what causes autoimmnune diseases like lupus - most new treatment theories focus on either implanting a virus in the cells to cause them to self-destruct, or to change them enough to cause the immune system to see them as different from normal cells). For every person whose cancer disappeared or went into remission after <insert therapy of choice here>, there's another whose didn't (just as for every Andy Kaufman, who died of a rare form of lung cancer without ever smoking a cigarette in his life, there's someone's Aunt Zelda, who smoked six packs a day and died in her sleep at 104). Bodies are incredibly complicated, with innumerable variables, someone living longer than predicted by doctors isn't proof of anything except how complicated we are - prognoses are educated guesses, based on the preponderance of current evidence, they're not hard and fast rules, everybody is different. Anecdotal evidence isn't scientific proof, not least because people tend to be unable to use objective critical thinking when dealing with such matters.

I'm sure every oncologist on the planet would love for cancer prevention to be as easy as you imply it is, but so far the evidence doesn't back that up (not least because this view is far too simplistic with regards to the multitude of diseases which fall under the "cancer" heading). My mind isn't closed, but I was a registered nurse, I just don't believe in wishful thinking over scientific proof, there's a difference between having a closed mind and being a critical thinker. As I said, by all means feed whatever diet you wish, but please be realistic and be wary of potentially harmful fads (for example, to my knowledge, there's no reliable evidence that megadoses of vitamins has any benefit, whereas there IS evidence that they can be harmful). Generally speaking, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. IMO, if there's no independent study to back something up, I'm wary of it. As Carl Sagan said "extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence".

And as far as I can tell, I am being nice. I just disagree. :)

[mmgy]

Okay, maybe I shouldn't have responded earlier until I had time to answer completely!

My "dog food epiphany" I referred to was simply learning how the body processes food, including how tumors process food. Before that, I fed Purina, filled with corn-based carbs. If tumors feed off of carbs, and can't feed off of protein and fat, then when you know you have cancer cells then wouldn't you feed more protein and fat? That's how I changed Rocky's diet. I went to premium foods, added Hill's n/d (supposedly the only food proven to help cancer patients), some megadoses of vitamins C and E (which we later cut back), some homecooking and a nutritional supplement designed by Antech just for him. Rocky had lost 17 lbs in the 5 weeks prior to his last diagnosis. On this regimen he gained 22 lbs and outlived my vet's expectations.

Had he eaten better his whole life, would he have avoided cancer? No, but I would like to believe he may not have developed it so young.

Delilah started eating better back then as well. After her surgery last Dec., we added vitamins C and E to her diet. I don't know if it's helped or not. We've had a 10 month interval between episodes, but since she was so near death (I had already made the decision), I'd like to think the extra attention helped. Since her current diagnosis, I've tweaked her diet a bit, and some things haven't worked, so I've eliminated them. But if I hadn't been paying attention, she would have left me several weeks ago.

I do agree that you really have to be diligent with your studies on what and what not to do, and interactions of various therapies. And there are some things that just aren't practical for most people anyway...I've been advised several times to put Delilah on purified water. That's not practical for a big dog.

Let me state again--I speak purely from a cancer management standpoint. And I don't believe carbs "cause" cancer, I believe too many carbs can make it easy for cancer to gain a foothold.

I still think Kim is on the right track to create the healthiest dog she can, so that if she is faced with a medical crisis, she'll know she did what she could. So this is what I think about her diet:
Kim, stick with the Canidae, the beef and the chicken. If you get a puppy or a young dog that should be fine. If you want to use a standard multi-vitamin, fine. I wouldn't use the vitamin C unless I had a specific reason, and I don't believe an otherwise healthy young dog needs an antioxidant cocktail. If you were to take a middle-aged rescue with an unknown dietary past, I might consider the antioxidants.

Okay, I'll take a rest now. Kim wanted opinions, she's getting them.
Mary Mac

PS to PT---My dogs have had three splenectomies in four years. Lots of people ask me about power lines, water, and pesticides.

[roadweed]

I'm sure every oncologist on the planet would love for cancer prevention to be as easy as you imply it is,

No, they wouldn't - then how would they make a living!
A lot of scientific evidence is not made public, for the simple fact that it would cost the big drug companies to much money if it were.
As for the diet, I agree with Mary Mac that a multi-vitamin might be better than the vitamin C. Since we are discussing diets, I also would add 'move free' from costco-not for cancer fighting properties, but to stave off arthritis. Completely unrelated to the topic at hand, I know, but also, I believe, important in our breed.

[rottnkidd]

I think the immune system plays the most vital role of all in our health, and that of our companion animals. I have alot of questions, and I certainly don't have all the answers, but what is different about the pets of today, compared to the pets of 50-60 yrs ago? My grandmother had a dog that lived just under 16 yrs.
She just passed away quietly during the night. Grandmother said the dog was just 'tired out' from a long working life.
This dog was never spayed, never vaccinated, ate bread soaked in milk, homemade soups, and raw bones from the butcher shop.
Her 'treat' was a slice of home baked bread, toasted ontop of the coal stove! This was about 68 yrs ago. Now, all of these years later, we have dog's with cancer, heart and skeletal disease, Cushings, Addison's, diabetes, skin allergies, kidney and liver problems...
Of course the air isn't clean, the water isn't pure, and we're all too busy to stop and enjoy a sunset. But what's happening to our dog's? There was a time when a Veterinary clinic wasn't easy to find. Now there's dozens of them in one small city, and they're all so busy tending to sick pets, that getting a same-day appt is almost unheard of!
I made a decision to do everything differently with this dog. My
choice of how to feed, or whether or not to vaccinate were decisions that I didn't make hastily; and whether or not these choices I've made will be beneficial in the long run, only time will tell.

Here's a link to a synopsis of Dr Belfield's study on Vit C and it's many benefits. He's internationally recognized for his intense study on Vit C therapy/immunotherapy, and hip dysplasia.
http://www.princeton.edu/~mcbrown/display/belfield.html

and this link to Dr Clemmons site, and his alternative treatment for cancer in the canine; including diet and supplementation.
http://neuro.vetmed.ufl.edu/neuro/Al...cer_AltMed.htm


kathy

[frontierrots]

There is some interesting info at http://www.rottweilerhealth.org click on canine cancer conference report. (t's a PDF file) In it t does specifically mention diet and the fact that some veggies can help

I have a Rott girl who just turned 11. She was diagnosed with bladder cancer in May. I immediatelychanged her to a most raw meat diet, added supplements (C, E, A, multi vitamin, cranberry, Ultra Clear Plus poder, salmon oil, flax oil) plus stated her on Piroxicam ( human arthritis med that helps with TCC cancers)

The average lifespan of a Rott is 8.5. The average life expectancy of a dog diagnosed with TCC bladder cancer is 6 months or less. Angelica has beaten both these. I attribute this entirely to the changes we've made and the life she lived prior (good food, reduced vaccinations etc..)

Diet ,supplements (1000 mg of vit C is NOT a megadose!!) and lifestyle changes can and does make a difference

[chivas]

WHOA! I asked for opinions and boy did i get them.
Id like to thank everyone for responding, I see there are many different opinions on this subject.
After ALL (and it was ALOT and intense) research I did on osteo mainly, but cancer in general in rotties; I am still kind leaning towards that diet may just be an answer in many ways, maybe not completely but who really knows? We dont know why cancer starts so I dont think we can definitly say that diet or supplements or anything else wont help.
I agree with parts of what all of yall said - some more then others.
I dont think that trying a diet such as I mentioned would hurt in any way and if my dog did NOT get cancer who is to say that maybe she wasnt going to anyway or that the diet did help. I just dont know and unfortunalty none of us know. All i do know is that cancer is rampant in this magnificent breed and according to my german great grandmother - she cant recall rotties dying of cancer in her youth in Germany back in the 20's. The dogs ate raw meat - they didnt have dog food back then. They did NOT live as long as our dogs do now but according to her - they mainly died from injuries as they werent pets then but working dogs only. Still -as I said - who knows. All i know is that osteo took the best dog in the world from me and i promised her that i do what i could to help research how to make it unknown in dogs and humans. Diet may or may not be the way to go, but it cant hurt to try to start somewhere.
Thanks again for the replies! Yall are great!
Kim