just say no to BARF?

[Jaegergirl]

before i say anything, i want to mention that i followed forum etiquette and searched the forum (and archives) but couldn't find the answer to the following:

when i first found out what BARF was, i thought there was no way i was going to change from commercial kibble to that... seemed to labor intensive and expensive. but as i read more about it (and look at some of the links given in past discussions), i'm really considering making the switch, especially when i read about all the benefits. when making a decision, you weigh the pros and the cons, right!!?? well i've found a wealth of positive information but nothing in regards to why you SHOULDN'T feed your dog BARF. so i want to pose this question...why would you not want to go the BARF route?? i don't want to incite a "riot" or anything, i'd just like to know from the ones who've done the research and decided not to make the switch what brought them to their decision. or simply what drawbacks there are, if any, from feeding BARF.

thanks! : )

[spidey]

There are more than a few threads on this very topic (search for "barf" and "against"). Rather than rehash them (they often end up in stalemates), here's some reading from the forum, please ask questions if you have any:

http://www.rottweiler.net/forums/sho...t=against+barf
http://www.rottweiler.net/forums/sho...t=against+barf
http://www.rottweiler.net/forums/sho...t=against+barf
http://www.rottweiler.net/forums/sho...t=against+barf

[DixieGrl113]

1. Possible exposure to food borne pathogens/parasites in raw meats/bones
2. Risk of choking
3. Risk of tears/rips/shredding of digestive tract
4.You must do the research and become educated on how to formulate a balanced canine diet. Balanced over time but none the less balanced for a canine's nutritional needs... ie hamburger and carrots everyday isn't gonna cut it ;)
5.you have to find a good wholesaler or someone to sell RMBS in bulk or at a great price or it is expensive. I compare it to the cost of feeding a child.
6. must have freezer space or prepare it fresh everyday

I can't really think of any other reasons not to feed Raw but I'm sure others have plenty. I feed Raw and I have not had any problems with any of the above. If you worry about choking hazards or digestive tract hazards, grind the RMBs. (Raw Meaty Bones) But make no mistake about it, you will be exposing your dogs to some level of bacteria and perhaps even parasites. My dogs have all handled the bacteria fine, BUT, they were already in good general health with no immune system issues. They are on monthly oral heartworm preventative year round to keep any parasite loads to a minimum/eliminated. I get a great price on my RMBs and veggies so it actually costs me about the same as feeding Canidae or Wellness full time would. I also have a huge chest freezer reserved just for dog food. (Got it at a great price too! $50 )That helps out with space and i can actually keep MY food in the freezer above the fridge :) I started feeding Raw b/c I had run out of options for feeding my oldest girl. Her allergies were out of control and we had narrowed it down to grains. She just couldn't handle them and that eliminated every commercial food out there. She was so miserable and i was at my wits end. I couldn't stand to see her so pitiful. Been feedin Raw over a year and quickly approaching 2. The difference in all of my dogs especially my oldest girl is amazing. The best part is tiny poop and clean teeth.

[Carina43]

Interesting.

If you go to NO SPAMMING, there is one called anti_barf. Join it and read the archives...it was started by someone who did not feed raw, but thought it was a dangerous/silly idea. It's pretty funny...because really there's not much discussion on why feeding raw is a bad idea, seems almost everyone joined to defend it but nobody's really trashing it. So there's just quite a bit of thoughtful discussion on the finer points of dog nutrition.

Almost everyone who researches raw stumbles across the infamous anti-barf article in the first link which makes them very nervous - it is generally regarded as hokum, and the second link is Billinghurst's reply to it. I read it when I first started, and it scared me half to death at first, but I'm still feeding this way almost three years later, so draw your own conclusions. :)

http://secondchanceranch.org/rawmeat.html
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/F...4/bluedog.html

Of COURSE there are risks. Dogs can choke or get impactions with raw bones. This can also happen with rawhides, carpet fibers, tampons, sticks, plastic bags, tennis balls, socks...Dogs can get bacterial infections too - though while I have heard of dogs that have had problems from bones (honestly quite rare) I have never heard of a bacterial illness from food. Mostly those are from feces & contaminated water, anyhow, nothing to do with diet. And there's a couple of cases of outbreaks of poisoning with kibble, resulting in a number of deaths. Some people live in places or situations (also rare) where they can't get inexpensive meats, so it costs more. And very infrequently, a dog just never likes the diet, and doesn't have much improvement - usually those owners then go to a cooked diet. I have a friend with a Jack Russel and a Dalmation mix who ended up doing this because her JRT just could not get over diarrhea & tummy upsets on some aspect of a raw diet. She didn't want to do seperate diets for her dogs, so she went to a cooked meat & veggie diet & supplements with eggshells & dairy for calcium. Diet - no diet - is a miracle cure-all for every condition. My oldest dog was about 12 when I started it - she's 14-15 now (GSDx). I really didn't see any improvement in her arthritis, which has steadily got worse, though other improvements in her teeth & overall condition were great.


However, its pretty well documented (I have some book suggestions if you're interested) that improperly fed dogs often have chronic health problems. Roughly 50% of all dogs in this country are overweight; 85% of dogs 3 yrs old & older have dental & gum problems (which can affect heart and lungs) - diabetes and epilepsy is very common, so is cancer. Much of this can be attributed at least in part to a steady diet of mushy cooked grain product, and heavy doses of preservatives and other chemical additives to kibble.

There is a difference between poor quality kibble and better kibbles like Innova, Canidae, etc. Most people in this country feed the crappy stuff and think Science Diet is the best there is.

[Jaegergirl]

i didn't have any luck finding conversations against barf...must not have been my day or something. thanks a lot for pointing me in the right direction.

[Homerhomer]

Originally posted by Jaegergirl

when i first found out what BARF was, i thought there was no way i was going to change from commercial kibble to that... seemed to labor intensive and expensive. but as i read more about it (and look at some of the links given in past discussions), i'm really considering making the switch, especially when i read about all the benefits.

I was exactly like that and I am very happy I made the change.
Others provided the links I would just like to add that most who are against barf never tried it on their animals and have little or no experience with it, and pretty much all of us who feed barf have experience with both barf and kibble and have first hand experience with different ways of feeding and different results they produce.

[CarolineS]

I went to a canine nutrition seminar today given by Monica Segal. She is Canadian but formulates diets for dogs all over the world. Monica is not married to any one philosophy of feeding dogs and her clients' dogs eat raw diets, cooked diets and a combination of the two. The right diet is the diet that works for your dog. She emphasized not being so blindly focused on a dietary philosophy, of any kind, that you miss seeing it may not be working for YOUR dog.

She pointed out pros and cons of all ways of feeding, but since your question was about BARF, I'll add a few things that haven't been mentioned so far.

• A raw fed dog can be a subclinical carrier of salmonella. Although the dog does not suffer from any ill-effects, this can become an issue if you have small children or immune-compromised people in the household.
• In the same vein, a subclinical carrier may not suffer from salmonella proliferation, but if that same dog becomes ill the salmonella can flare up and complicate the illness.
• Some raw diets are too high in calcium and phosphorus which can cause problems in younger dogs and interfere with the absorption of some other minerals.
• Some people build their whole diet around chicken and turkey and therefore end up with a diet deficient in some areas.
• The high amount of bone in BARF produces the small firm stools. For some dogs, the amount of bone can be a problem and cause impactions or constipation.

[Carina43]

Originally posted by CarolineS

• A raw fed dog can be a subclinical carrier of salmonella. Although the dog does not suffer from any ill-effects, this can become an issue if you have small children or immune-compromised people in the household.
• Some people build their whole diet around chicken and turkey and therefore end up with a diet deficient in some areas.
• The high amount of bone in BARF produces the small firm stools. For some dogs, the amount of bone can be a problem and cause impactions or constipation.

Interesting about being a carrier for salmonella; I have heard references to this before...did she offer any cites or further reading?

There was a recent disussion on the yahoo rawfeeding list I'm on about high bone content ~ many people misunderstand the Billinghurst directive to feed 50/50 muscle meat & bone...and feed too much bone. A prey animal like a rabbit is about 20% bone, 7% organ meat...the rest being connective tissue, cartilege & muscle meat. These are rough figures, depending on the animal but generally correct. Since many people feed a huge amount of chicken backs/wings & turkey necks (cheap & available) to the exclusion of other meats and whole carcasses, I think she is absolutely correct.

I wish I had been able to make that seminar. She is the author of the month on the DogRead yahoo list (where they invite a dog book author on to discuss their book & its content with about 3500 list members - you can join & read archives, it's really interesting.)

[Jaegergirl]

thank you all for your comments. definately gives me more to think about and all the more reason to do more research. my pup is doing fine on the food he's on now so it's not like i need or want to make the switch today.

that's interesting about the dog being a potential subclinical carrier of salmonella. i have 2 children.. one being a toddler and definately don't want to put him at risk. like i said.. more research will be done on my part.

thanks again.

[CarolineS]

Originally posted by Carina43


Interesting about being a carrier for salmonella; I have heard references to this before...did she offer any cites or further reading?

She did quote a study done at an American university and I think she referred to one done in Europe but I didn't bother to copy it down. Since I feed cooked, I must admit to paying more attention to the fine details of cooked diets. ;) If you belong to DogRead, perhaps you can post the question to her there?

I really enjoyed her seminar. She has so much common sense and doesn't recommend one diet to fit all dogs. She looks at the dog and decides what his needs are and which diet will suit him best. As you know, I'm big on making sure all the nutrients are in whatever kind of diet you feed your dog and everything she formulates, even raw diets, are based on the NRC standards. She says that the vast majority of her clients are there because the diet they're using is not working for the dog. Quite often it is not the fact that the diet is raw or cooked, but that it isn't balanced properly.

One other thing that might interest raw feeders, she has had analyses done of raw, skinless turkey necks, skinless chicken necks, chicken wings, chicken backs and rabbits (whole without head). She also includes an analysis of raw calf and pig bones. These analyses are in her book "Your Dogs' Diet: The Truth Behind the Hype".

I feed cooked, so I use bonemeal. There is a lot of hype out there about how high the lead count is in bonemeal and how it can harm your dog. Since I have no choice but to feed bonemeal to Maggie, I buy a brand that is well-respected, that lists their bonemeal as being purified and I just don't dwell on it. This is one piece of hysteria she personally looked into. She bought six different bottles of bonemeal from the same manufacturer (luckily the same one I use) and paid an independent laboratory to analyze it. All six bottles came back with the result of "undetectable amounts of lead". What that means is that if there were any lead in it, the amounts were too small to be detected by any piece of laboratory equipment known to man. So, while she can't honestly say that she can recommend all brands of bonemeal, this is one she knows for a fact is safe.

If anyone is interested in reading her book, it can be purchased on her website www.doggiedietician.com. It's $19.95 US plus shipping and handling. If you are just beginning your foray into home-prepared food you'll find the book will dispel some of the more popular myths and hysteria that abound about all diets. It will give you the facts, backed up by analyses she's actually had done herself or from studies done by others. The book will not tell you which diet is best for your dog, but will give you the basics of canine nutrition and dispassionately point out the pros and cons of the different types of diets that are in vogue today. There is an element of risk with any diet, just as with anything in life, so it is best to research the diet you're considering from lots of different sources and then go with what makes the most sense to you personally. If it then works well for your dog, great, if not, don't be afraid to admit it and try something different.

[DixieGrl113]

That sounds like a good read...i'm going to try and order it

[joquendo]

jaegergirl I am glad you posed the question - I still haven;t heard one good reason not to (health wise) - I know timie constraints can make it a little "inconvenient" but that depends on the individual.

My surprise when I say to people what do you have against RAW/BARF, they often respond with the typical answer - it cannot be good for the dog..feeding raw meat and veggies! hmmmmm and my answer often is....and feeding them over processed, dry, dead food which has a low bioavailability to the dog, with often (depending on the food you feed) diseasedn chemical ridden carcasses, beaks, toe nails, feathers, with fat sprayed over it to make it appetizing is better for them???

I am glad I did my own personal research and concluded that RAW was the way to go... nothing is perfect but I sure believe feeding raw definately aids with the dogs overall health improvement and maintenance.

[Jaegergirl]

i know there are millions of articles for and against BARF but i thought i'd post this link for anyone who's considering switching to BARF like myself.

http://www.petplace.com/articles/artShow.asp?artID=3723

interesting (or maybe it isn't) that they recommend eukenuba and science diet.. hmm...

[Carina43]

The JAVMA article they mention was flawed - there was at least one lawsuit (brought by Steve's Real Food, makers of a raw pet food) against the journal to refute the erroneous data. The researchers later published "corrected" versions of their data - because they were legally compelled to do so - but these data were radically different to the first data collected, which is what they based their original assertions that raw food diets were deficient. Basically - the data was flawed and unreliable! Subsequent analysis showed various raw diets to be perfectly adequate - which raises two points. One, very few people actually feed any of these commercial diets as the sole diet for their pets. Two, few of the commercial raw products even claim to be "100% complete & balanced blablablah" - many are sold as a supplementary food, or designed to have other foods added by the buyer - raw meaty bones, whatever.

Ralston-Purina (guess who sponsored the initial study, hmmm?)later had to be legally estopped from using the flawed data in seminars where they were promoting their pet food as healthy, and commercial raw diets as unhealthy.

Honestly, I don't think all kibble is evil crap, and I don't even believe raw diets are necessarily the perfect food for all pets, or for all owners to feed. But so far EVERY single study I have seen claiming that raw diets are "harmful" is either/or flawed, misrepresenting criteria, and funded by a pet food maker who is running scared because their profits are being affected. Don't think Iams, Purina, P&G et al aren't paying attention! Why do you think we're seeing things like "Beneful" and the Science Diet food with all the pretty pictures of actual food items on the bag being sold now? I will take bets that within a decade, one of the big kibble manufacturers is going to come out with a "BARF" type product.

Amnd the following quote is absolutely laughable:
"...dietary theories proposed by raw-meat advocates are too vague and are causing a lot of problems in pets. “They’re basically, ‘open the fridge and feed what you want, whenever you want.’”
She does not have a clue. Most people who feed their own dogs real food spend an utterly ridiculous amount of time researching and reading about canine nutrition, physionomy, health, supplements, digestion, etc - often to the point of getting obsessive about it.

Finally (since I'm writing a book about this, I have become one of those obsessed people!) - I have heard of so few negative reports, or so few dogs who don't take to this diet well - and an absolute BUTTLOAD (this is a scientific measure, hehe :) ) of people who report some fairly amazing improvements in their dogs. And I'm even taking into account that many people are seeing improvements because they expect to, or because they ae suddenly paying much closer attention. But the anecdotal evidence is simply overwhelming despite this - there certainly are alternative ways to feed our dogs that ARE perfectly healthful and good for them! My own dogs are a perfect example. :)

[Jaegergirl]

Why do you think we're seeing things like "Beneful" and the Science Diet food with all the pretty pictures of actual food items on the bag being sold now? I will take bets that within a decade, one of the big kibble manufacturers is going to come out with a "BARF" type product.

very interesting. i bet they're already working on it!!! : )

i still haven't found any real convincing arguments why you shouldn't feed BARF.