Wellness vs. Canidae vs. Innova

[matt4800]

Hey everyone,

I know this question has been asked a 100 different ways from Sunday, but I am going to ask again.

Wellness vs. Canidae vs. Innova

I would like to know from the people that have tried all three of the above mentioned products, is one better than the other and if so what are the reasons you selected the one you did after trying all three.

I am going to switch over today and am leaning toward Canidae. Abby is currently on IAMs and I have had no noticeable problems or concerns, but the constant positioning from this group about high quality kibble has made me feel guilty and the cost is about the same for a 40lb bag. Although I am not a doctor and have no major quarms with IAMs, I do see the higher value and better ingredients in these products and am willing to give them a try for the better and long-lasting health of my dog.

I have seen everyone's vote over the last few months for their favorite hq kibble, but I would really like to hear from the people who have tried all three products, if possible, to see why they are using one over the other.

Thanks in advance,

Matt

[roccorottie]

Matt,
I cannot speak of Wellness, though I have a friend who feeds his apbt the brand and swears by it. Coming from Iams, all 3 of your brands are good choices.

When we got our pup from the breeder, he was on Canidae. Our other dog (4yo) is on Innova. I can honestly say that at 5 mos old now, our Rottie pup has a tremendous coat and really loves his Canidae. His stools are smaller than what I expected and he eats it all up. Some folks here have said they've seen no decrease in stool size on Canidae, so it must be based on the dog. I have given our Rott some Innova as well and he enjoys that also. I get compliments on his coat everywhere we go. I believe much of this has to do with a quality feed. He is fit and "well built" for his age IMO. Our other dog on the Innova also does real well. She has a nice coat and the stools are much smaller (she was previously on Pro Plan). Innova is a dense, rich food and we don't feed as much as we would other brands.

I believe much of your decision boils down to personal preference since all the brands you mention are good. For us, we'll keep our Rottie pup on Canidae and maybe give him some Innova from time to time. I don't think you can go wrong with any of the three. Good Luck!

[DixieGrl113]

I feed BARF the majority of the time and I haven't tried Innova but I have tried Canidae and use Wellness on a regular basis while traveling with my gang. my dogs did well on Canidae. I haven't ever fed it long enough to see any changes. They are already on a great diet. But at one point I fed Wellness Super 5 Lamb and also chicken for an almost 2 month period exclusively when I got too busy to keep up my BARF supplies. It maintained the great results I had already gotten feeding raw and my dogs still love it. The only change I noticed was bigger poops that take a lot longer to dissipate in the yard. I think I may just be used to the incredibly small stools produced on a BARF diet though. Also their water intake doubled even when I added water to the kibble/canned. Also my girl with food allergies had an ear flare up and a small rash on her tummy after feeding the Canidae for a week. I still don't know why b/c all of the protein sources in Canidae are foods she eats on a regular basis raw...My other 3 were fine though, no problems. But b/c I like to feed them all the same food (sheer laziness i know *g*) I stick with Wellness when needed. Roxy's hasn't had any reactions to it yet. I like the whole fruits and veggies in there and also that its baked. I like the texture of the kibble too. Its not thin and cracker like. I don't know how to explain it...Innova, Canidae and Wellness are all great foods though. There are others too. I like Wysong canned because its all meat with organs and ground bone...Try a few of the diferent ones out there and see which you like best. There is no one food that fits all dogs. You don't have to stick to just one brand. Just compare ingredients and stay away from foods with fillers. You want your dog to be getting the most from the food, in order to determine which food does that the best, you'll have to feed them and find out ;)

[BarryMcD]

> Matt wrote:

> Wellness vs. Canidae vs. Innova: I would like to know from the people that have
> tried all three of the above mentioned products, is one better than the
> other and if so what are the reasons you selected the one you did after trying all three.

Sorry for cross-posting this in two threads, but it answer both, especially this one!
---------------------------------------------------

Selecting a kibble depends on two things: You philosophy and wishes about what your dog eats--based on the dog's activity level, etc., and your understanding of what is in each brand.

The quick review:

WELLNESS: If you feed this, you believe your dog should eat lots of vegetable matter and that dogs are not really carnivorous but omnivorous. The sacrifice here is that you are feeding slightly less fat/protein and more carbohydrates. You'll need to feed more of Wellness because it has a relatively low ME (Metabolic Energy) which is the total amount of energy per day your dog gets from the food. Might be a good choice for an older or inactive dog. Poor choice for puppies: does not have the proper nutritional profile.

INNOVA: If you feed Innova, you believe your dog should eat primarily meat and be getting mega-nutrition (also known as "more than enough of everything.") A very high ME makes this a food that moderately or inactive dogs will probably gain weight on. High ME also means you will feed very little compared with other foods--which can be a problem for a large dog like a Rottie because they need a certain "volume." The Adult Maintanence is a poor food for puppies. The Puppy Formula is even worse for puppies. Large breed pups need moderate to low amounts of certain nutrients such as calcium, unlike smaller dogs, as they are growing. Innova has a very high amount of calcium and other nutrients that large breed pups should not have unless you want to encourage fast growth and jeopardize their skeletal system and make hip dysplasia more likely. I would never feed this to a pup under 1 1/2 years. For adults, may be appropriate for very active or sports dogs who need optimal nutrition and high calories. The stomach upset some dogs experience often disappears and is usually caused by switching too quickly from the old food, or from switching from a lower quality food.

RECOMMENDATION: If I were you, I would chuck both and see if Canidae is sold near where you live. No better food for a Rottweiler! The one formula is perfect for adults and also has a very good nutrional profile for large breed pups. Canidae actually has some things in common with Innova, but has a tri-meat formual which will guarantee a good mix of amino acids and avoids the mega-nutrition. I like to say that Innova is Canidea on steroids! If
your dog is doing Schutzhund or pumping iron, go for the Innova--but wait till he grows to full size! For "normal" and moderately-high activity dogs, Canidae is the best you can get.

Learned this from 6 months of e-mails, phone calls, trials, and research, as well as practical experience with many dogs. Also, Innova and Canidae are about equal in the probiotics they provide. Wellness may have a little less. All contain no preservatives and are made from human grade ingredients.

> I am going to switch over today and am leaning toward Canidae. Abby is currently
> on IAMs and I have had no noticeable problems or concerns, but the constant positioning
> from this group about high quality kibble has made me feel guilty and the cost
> is about the same for a 40lb bag.

Canidae an excellent choice!

As for IAMs, one of the worst foods on the market--NOT IMHO, but according to dozens of reviews, including the Whole Dog Journal's February 2002 kibble comparisons! Use it to insulate the walls!

As for $$$$, you will spend less for Canidae than IAMs in the long run because your dog will eat less to get the same (or more) nutrition! Also you will need no supplements with Canidae. For example, some people give yogurt to their dogs to promote intestinal health with the lacto bacillus, but Canidae has got yogurt-like bacteria in it already. A totally complete food!

By the way, all five of my dogs love Canidae. All five also loved Innova. Several did not care for Wellness! I am unsure that taste tests prove anything because some companies spray all the fat and other tastes on the outside of the kibble (the famous Bil-Jac trick), or add sugars. Also, I think of it this way: If I had a choice between broiled chicken and brussel sprouts or a nice pint of Ben & Jerry's ice cream and a cup of good tea, you could forget the chicken and sprouts!

[chris nanney]

No experience with Wellness but I have fed Innova and Canidae.

Innova - good food with quality ingredients. Fed it for 6-7 months and my one dog at the time gained weight. I tried to get the weight off by slowly reducing the amount I was feeding. She was still gaining weight off of 1 cup twice daily. When I reduced it to 3/4 of a cup twice daily I decided it was useless to feed such a small amount to a large dog. She was obviously hungry even though I'm sure her nutritional needs were well met. Even though the food was pricey, I was saving money since I fed so little but it wasn't worth it. If your dog has a high metabolism, is highly active or a working dog, give it a shot. Dogs with average activity levels will probably gain weight unless you feed less.

Canidae - same as above. Good food that I fed for a shorter duration with similar results. Didn't seem to be as high in calories as Innova but still a high cal food. I saw myself heading down the same road to feeding small (too small) amounts and discontinued use.

[rockyrott]

I feed my Rocky who is a 5 month old rott innova. He eats it faster than I can put it in the bowl and his coat in only a week has improved tremendously. I would refer innova to anyone. I tried the canidae but he didn't eat it as well as the innova. Now if I could just get him to stop barking and whining in his crate at 2 in the morning I will be all set!

[DixieGrl113]

I don't think that if you feed Wellness you believe your dog should be eating mostly vegetable matter. Considering I feed a BARF diet which consists of 80%meat including tripe and bones and 20% vege and fruit pulp and juice, I dont see how feeding wellness would support a mostly veggie philosophy. All of my dogs are very active and ate anywhere from 2 cups to 4 cups a day to maintain their condition. (4 cups for my older pup)Wellness also makes a puppy food. Like I said before to determine which of the super premium foods is best for your dog you have to feed them and find out. There could be any number of things contained in a food that your dog could react to. There is no magic food for everydog. For the most part any of the above 3 are great foods.
Here are some ingredient lists..

Wellness Super 5 Chicken

Deboned Chicken, Ground Barley, Oatmeal, Rye Flour, Menhaden Fishmeal, Whitefish, Ground Brown Rice, Ground Millet, Canola Oil (preserved with Rosemary, Vitamin C & E), Flax Seed, Amaranth, Dried Peas, Dried Carrots, Whole Sweet Potatoes, Whole Apples, Whole Blueberries, Whole Clove Garlic, Alfalfa Leaf, Yucca Schidigera, Probiotics (Lactobacillus Plantarum, Enterococcus Faecium, Lactobacillus Casei, Lactobacillus Acidophilus), Prebiotics (Inulin, Fructose), Glucosamine, Chondroitin Sulfate, Beta-Carotene, Potassium Chloride, Zinc Proteinate (a chelated source of Zinc), Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Copper Proteinate (a chelated source of Copper), Copper Sulfate, Niacin Supplement, Manganese Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate ( a chelated source of Manganese), Sodium Selenite, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Acetate, Riboflavin Supplement, Calcium Iodate, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid

Crude Protein Not Less Than 22.0%
Crude Fat Not Less Than 12.0%
Crude Fiber Not More Than 3.0%
Moisture Not More Than 11.0%
As Served Per Cup (percent per cup)
Protein: 24.70%
Fat: 13.87%
Fiber: 2.20%
Met. Energy: Kcal/g 2.89%
Calories Analysis (calories per cup)
1 Cup 327.61

Wellness Fish and sweet potato

White Fish, Ground Barley, Rye Flour, Menhaden Fish Meal, Whole Sweet Potatoes, Canola Oil (preserved with Rosemary, Vitamin C & E), Flax Seed, Beta-Carotene, Potassium Chloride, Zinc Proteinate (a chelated source of Zinc), Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Copper Proteinate (a chelated source of Copper), Copper Sulfate, Niacin Supplement, Manganese Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate ( a chelated source of Manganese), Sodium Selenite, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Acetate, Riboflavin Supplement, Calcium Iodate, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid
Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein Not Less Than 22.0%
Crude Fat Not Less Than 12.0%
Crude Fiber Not More Than 3.0%
Moisture Not More Than 11.0%

As Served Per Cup (percent per cup)
Protein: 24.16%
Fat: 13.90%
Fiber: 1.84%
Met. Energy: Kcal/g 2.88%

Calories Analysis (calories per cup)
1 Cup 326.48

Wellness Super5 Lamb

Lamb, Lamb Meal, White Fish, Ground Brown Rice, Ground Barley, Oatmeal, Rye Flour, Ground Millet, Amaranth, Flax Seed, Canola Oil (preserved with Rosemary, Vitamin C & E), Dried Peas, Dried Carrots, Whole Sweet Potatoes, Whole Apples, Whole Blueberries, Whole Clove Garlic, Alfalfa Leaf, Yucca Schidigera, Lactobacillus Plantarum, Enterococcus Faecium, Lactobacillus Casei, Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Chicory Extract, Glucosamine, Chondroitin Sulfate, Beta-Carotene, Potassium Chloride, Zinc Proteinate (a chelated source of Zinc), Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Copper Proteinate (a chelated source of Copper), Copper Sulfate, Niacin Supplement, Manganese Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate ( a chelated source of Manganese), Sodium Selenite, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Acetate, Riboflavin Supplement, Calcium Iodate, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid.


Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein Not Less Than 22.0%
Crude Fat Not Less Than 12.0%
Crude Fiber Not More Than 3.0%
Moisture Not More Than 11.0%

As Served Per Cup (percent per cup)
Protein: 25.90%
Fat: 14.33%
Fiber: 2.49%
Met. Energy: Kcal/g 2.84%

Calories Analysis (calories per cup)
1 Cup 321.94




Canidae

Chicken Meal, Turkey Meal, Brown Rice, White Rice, Lamb Meal, Chicken Fat, (Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Ascorbic Acid), Menhaden Fish Meal, Flax Seed, Sun Cured Alfalfa Meal, Sunflower Oil, Lecithin, Brewers Yeast, Natural Flavors, Monosodium Phosphate, Choline, Linoleic Acid, Rosemary Extract, Sage Extract, Ferrous Sulfate, Mixed Tocopherols (Source of Vitamin E) Zinc Oxide, Sodium Selenite, Manganous Oxide, Riboflavin Supplement (Source of B2), Yeast Culture, Dried Aspergillus Niger Fermentation Extract, Dried Aspergillus Oryzae Fermentation Extract, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Streptococcus Faecium Fermentation product, Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Cobalt Amino Acid Chelate, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Niacin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, D- Biotin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Calcium, Iodate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Papain, Bacillus Subtilis, Aspergillus Niger, Yucca Schidigera Extract.

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein (min.) 24.00 % Omega-3 Fatty Acids (min.) .60 %
Crude Fat (min.) 14.50 % Linoleic Acid (min.) 3.70 %
Crude Fiber (max.) 4.00 % Vitamin E (min.) 200.00 IU/KG
Moisture (min.) 10.00 % Amylase (min.) 950.00 BAU/ lb
Omega-6 Fatty Acids (min.) 3.20 % Xylanase (min.) 136.00 XU/ lb
(ME kcal per Cup 466.25) - (ME kcal per lb.1865)
(ME kcal per gm.4.10) - (ME kcal per kg 4103)


Innova

Turkey
Chicken
Chicken Meal
Ground Barley
Ground Brown Rice
Whole Steamed Potatoes
Ground Rice
Chicken Fat
Herring
Whole Raw Apples
Whole Steamed Carrots
Cottage Cheese
Sunflower Oil
Alfalfa sprouts
Whole Eggs
Garlic
Vitamins/Minerals
Probiotics

Protein 24 %
Carbohydrates 40.6 %
Fat 14 %
Moisture 9.5 %
Ash 7.9 %
Fiber 3 %
Calories 1895 Kcal/lb
Calories 557 Kcal/cup

Solid Gold Hund-n-Flocken

Lamb meal, ground millet, ground brown rice, ground barley, amaranth, rice bran oil, canola oil, flaxseed oil, rice bran, fish meal, garlic, blueberries, yucca schidigera extract, taurine, carotene, choline chloride, calcium carbonate, Vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, Vitamin A supplement, zinc proteinate, niacin supplement, folic acid, thiamine, pyridoxine hydrochloride, manganese proteinate, menadione, copper proteinate, ethylenediamine dihydriodide, natural flavors added.* * Usually Apples or Carrots (There are 3.8 cups to a pound.)

Guaranteed Analysis
Protein Min 22%
Fat Min 8%
Fiber Max 5%
Moisture Max 10%
Caloriesperlb 1741

California Natural Chicken&Rice

1. Chicken Meal
2. Ground Brown Rice
3. Ground Rice
4. Sunflower Oil
5. Flaxseed
6. Vitamins/Minerals

HealthWise

1. Chicken Meal
2. Oatmeal
3. Ground Brown Rice
4. Chicken Fat
5. Flaxseed Meal
6. Herring Oil
7. Hemp Oil
8. Natural Flavors
9. Potassium Chloride
10. Calcium Carbonate
11. Vitamins/Minerals

Flint River Ranch

INGREDIENTS: Chicken Meal, Whole Wheat Flour, Ground Rice, Lamb Meal, Poultry Fat (Preserved with Tocopherols and Ascorbic Acid), Ground Wheat, Dried Whole Egg, Lecithin, Fish Meal, Brewers Dried Yeast, Wheat Germ Meal, Dried Kelp, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Ferrous Sulfate, DL-Alpha Tocopherol Acetate (Source of Vitamin E), Zinc Oxide, Selenium Supplement, Manganous Oxide, Riboflavin Supplement (Vitamin B2), Copper and Cobalt, Niacin, Ascorbic Acid (Source of Vitamin C), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, D-Biotin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Calcium Iodate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Vitamin DO Supplement.

There are alot more out there but I need to get ready for work :) I got the ingredient lists above either directly from the manufacturers site or from the comparison wizard at Natura's site. Happy dog food hunting. ;)

[AngelBunny]

BarryMcD:

"You'll need to feed more of Wellness because it has a relatively low ME (Metabolic Energy) which is the total amount of energy per day your dog gets from the food. Might be a good choice for an older or inactive dog."

I read your comments with interest because we feed Wellness to our personal dogs and our fosters.

Golly! if Wellness is as you say--"...a good choice for an older or inactive dog"--I couldn't live with our two girls if we fed another food.

Both have very high energy levels and when we're out for our walks (we walk hard for 30-45 min in the am, for at least an hour at nite (once again, hard), and on the weekends usually walk [less hard} for 2 hours), they zoom around, chasing chipmunks and squirrels, dashing thru the swamps, running around; always on the move. I have never been able to outwalk them--I might arrive home tired, but they're just as fresh and energetic as when we started out.

I shudder to think what living with them would be like if they were fed a higher octane food!!!!

BTW: Our bitches are fed abt 3-1/4 to 3-1/2 cups of Wellness divided into two meals. (They get the bit more in the winter because we spend even more time outside--the winter is my favorite season.)

[BarryMcD]

> roccorottie wrote: believe much of your decision boils down to personal preference
> since all the brands you mention are good.... I don't think you can go wrong
> with any of the three.

Rocco: I would not say "personal preference" is what good nutrition boils down to. It is true that all three brands being discussed are good quality foods, but each is very different in some respects. Although the "average" dog may get by as well on any of them, particular breeds, age groups, and individual dogs need different nutrition, and Rotties are one breed that can be very sensitive to foods and also require a particular balance of nutrients. See responses below for more details on this.

The words "personal preference," suggest that the human who buys the food is going to select the one he or she prefers--but by what standard? If you mean the human will study the ingredients, learn some nutritional requirements of the breed, and then read and analyze the bag and his own dog's needs and activity level, and come to a "preference" based on this, I am all with you! But to some, "personal preference" means the color of the bag, the price, the nearness of the store, and the way the food smells to the human owner... all of which are relevant no doubt to the human, but have absolutely nothing to do with any measure of the dog's health.

> Chris nanney wrote: Innova - good food with quality ingredients. Fed it
> for 6-7 months and my one dog at the time gained weight. I tried to get the
> weight off by slowly reducing the amount I was feeding. She was still gaining
> weight off of 1 cup twice daily. When I reduced it to 3/4 of a cup twice daily
> I decided it was useless to feed such a small amount to a large dog. She
> was obviously hungry even though her nutritional needs were well met. Dogs
> with average activity levels will probably gain weight unless you feed less.

Chris: Exactly right! The problem with Innova or any nutritionally dense kibble is that you feed much less than with lower quality kibbles. The problem, exactly as you described, is that especially in large breeds, if your dog is not active enough to burn off the calories, it gains weight, but if you cut the food to less and less volume to achieve correct weight, the dog ends up eating almost nothing! Dogs have a need for a certain volume of food to pass through their mouths and fill their stomachs. A dog can get all the nutrition it needs from a dense food like Innova and end up with its stomach gurgling in hunger!

The numbers show the potential problem clearly. Innova Puppy contains 500 kcals per cup. The Adult formula is 557 kcals per cup. There are few commonly used kibbles with values this high--except among sports and working dog enthusiasts.

Compare to Canidae, with 466.25 kcals per cup. Approximately 90 kcals less PER CUP than Innova, or approximately 20 percent less!

Wellness, on the other hand, between 321-327 kcals per cup depending on which formula.

What you see here, if you compare dozens and dozens of commonly used premiums and super premiums, are three brands that fall pretty distinctly into three categories: Innova: HIGH CALORIE MEGA-NUTRITION, Canidae: MODERATE CALORIE HIGH NUTRITION, and Wellness: LOW CALORIE HIGH NUTRITION.

> Chris wrote:
> Canidae--same as above. Good food that I fed for a shorter duration with
> similar results. Didn't seem to be as high in calories as Innova but
> still a high cal food. I saw myself heading down the same road to feeding
> small (too small) amounts...

Although your particular dog may have gained weight on Canidae, this can be due to many reasons. Your statement that Canidae "Didn't seem to be as high in calories as Innova but still a high cal food" is not accurate by most caloric gauges. As mentioned above, Innova=557 kcal/cup while Canidae=466.25. If you average all major good quality foods together, you'll find the majority reside in the range between approx. 300-400 kcals/cup. Basically, heading closer to 400 you are getting into higher calorie foods. Above 400, you are well into clearly high calorie foods. Conversely, heading down towards 300, you are getting into lower calories foods, and near 300 or below you are clearly into very low calories foods. The AAFCO and other organizations use a figure near 355 cals/cup (I don't have the exact value handy) as the caloric standard against which the proportions of other nutrients are compared. So around 350 is clearly the baseline or the "moderate" zone as far as calories go.

I am not out to sell Canidae, and your judgment about your own dog is probably more accurate than my guesses, but all owners should consider these factors, no matter what brand they use.

--Most charts on the bags of most brands recommend too much food! If you go by the chart, you will probably be overfeeding.

--In Rotties and other large breeds particularly, some people think that the dog's overweight condition is what the dog should look like normally. Rottie's should be built of mostly muscle, not fat and loose flappy tissue. I am not addressing this to you Chris, but it is often true. Compare the average pet Rottie with a working dog or sports Rottie and you can see the amazing difference in firmness and weight!

--Rotties are prone to have thyroid problems, particularly hypothyroidism, which leads to overweight. IMHO, any overweight Rottie should have its thyroid checked! A full panel! I can say that with great emphasis because I have a 5 year old Rottie rescue that has a thickened heart muscle, is in the beginning stages of congestive heart failure, and is having exaggerated allergy and skin problems and mood swings--all due to hypothyroidism that was not diagnosed until it was too late. Please keep an eye on your Rott's thyroid. One pill a day can prevent it all if caught early!

--How active is your Rottie? Canidae is considered a moderate caloric food. But if you do Schutzhund with your dog every day, Canidae ain't gonna make it unless, like in that breakfast cereal ad, you serve five bowls of it! On the other hand, if you have a couch potato Rottie, or one with a thyroid problem, he or she will blow up like a balloon on the recommended amount of Canidae. The differences we see are differences in the dog's requirements, not the foods. The foods fall into particular categories. The question is which category of food does YOUR Rottie need? Ben & Jerry's Wavy Gravy is the highest calorie, highest fat ice cream I have ever found, and I eat at least one pint a day and I don't gain a pound. My wife can have one spoonful of it and gain two pounds! The ice cream is clearly a high calorie high fat food. The person who eats it does not change the category that the food falls in!

--Many (most?) pet owners do not take the time to add the calories, protein and fat content of the treats, rawhide, training rewards, and other foods that their dogs get daily to the actual meals. Reading the chart on the Wellness bag does mean anything if your dog inhaled three rolled up pork skins that morning!

--So in discussing Innova, Canidae, and Wellness, I am not saying one is a bad food and another is the best food. What I am pointing out is the nutritional differences between the foods, which CAN be helpful or hurtful to a particular dog or breed or age group. Each food is appropriate for different individuals, breeds, and life styles.

FOR EXAMPLE:

To Rockyrott and anyone who has a Rottie puppy: Innova is the worst food you could pick for a Rottie pup! Rotties and other large breed pups require some special nutritional attention! To briefly summarize: 1) They should be fed MUCH less calcium than the average sized dog. The AAFCO range of calcium for all dogs is from 1.0--2.5%. The recommendation for large breed pups is 1.0%. Innova contains 1.9% in its Puppy Formula and, from memory, 1.6 I believe in its Adult Maintenance Formula. The puppy food's calcium content is double what a Rottie pup should get. The Adult Formula is better, but unfortunately contains 557 kcals per cup, and this figure is much too high according to the latest caloric requirements for Rottie pups! If you want to read a very good article about this, search the net for "Relationship of Nutrition to Developmental Skeletal Disease in Young Dogs" by Daniel C. Richardson, published in "Veterinary Clinical Nutrition." This is but one source that explains that high caloric intake and/or high calcium intake in a large breed pup will greatly increase its chances of developing a host of skeletal deformities, including hip dysplasia, later in life!

So, coming off that information, you can see why I say your Rottweiler's nutrition has to do with a lot more than "personal preference" or weight. Dixiegrl113, you can see why I would object to your statement, "to determine which of the super premium foods is best for your dog you have to feed them and find out." There's more to it than feeding them and "finding out" that their coat looks nice and they did not gain weight. In two or three years, what you might "find out"--and I hope not!--is that you have a dysplastic dog with bone spurs who can't walk.

BTW, Wellness has 1.6%+ of calcium, about the same as Innova Adult. Canidae has 1.3%, one of the closest you will find in the super premium world to the 1.0% recommendation, which is why I feed it to my Rottie pup.

So Rockyrott, who mentioned feeding Innova to his 5 month old Rottie, I would respectfully urge you to look up the article I mentioned or just do a search on the web for terms like "large breed nutrition" of "large breed calcium." You are giving that pup too much calcium!

Unfortunately, all the nutritional facts that Dixiegrl kindly took the time to post on these brands do not contain all the information, and mean nothing unless you know what the ingredients are and how the numbers relate to one another. The bag, or even the company's website is not going to necessarily tell you what you want to know.

> DixieGrl113 wrote: I don't think that if you feed Wellness you believe your dog should be eating mostly vegetable matter.

I am going to take the list of ingredients for one Wellness formula that you listed and delete all meat sources and supplements. I will leave only the non-meat ingredients. Right below that I will do the same for Canidae.

Wellness Super 5 Chicken:
Ground Barley, Oatmeal, Rye Flour, Ground Brown Rice, Ground Millet, Canola Oil (preserved with Rosemary, Vitamin C & E), Flax Seed, Amaranth, Dried Peas, Dried Carrots, Whole Sweet Potatoes, Whole Apples, Whole Blueberries, Whole Clove Garlic, Alfalfa Leaf, Yucca Schidigera.

Canidae:
Brown Rice, White Rice, Flax Seed, Sun Cured Alfalfa Meal, Sunflower Oil, Lecithin, Brewers Yeast... and way way down at almost the end of the list, Yucca Schidigera.

It comes out 16 to 8. (I'll give you the benefit and count the minuscule amount of Yucca Schidigera in Canidae as a whole portion). Again, I quote my first post in which I said if you like Wellness...

> You believe your dog should eat lots of vegetable matter and that dogs are
> not really carnivorous but omnivorous

Maybe you DON'T believe that, but that's how you are feeding them if you feed Wellness. I would also point out that in the Wellness listings, of the first five ingredients, positions 2, 3 & 4 are grains, In the Canidae listings, positions 3 & 4 are grains, which means in terms of amount, Wellness has more grain per unit than Canidae. Also Canidae uses white & brown rice as its only grains, the rest are oils or seeds. Rice is considered to be the most digestible grain for dogs and the least likely to cause food allergies. Wellness lists five grains, one being brown rice, the others being less digestible grains and common allergens.

So DixieGrl, I have no argument with BARF'ers. The BARF diet is probably superior to feeding kibble if you have the knowledge to combine and supplement the meat with other foods properly. I respect BARF'ers for their willingness to put in the extra time and effort required to research, purchase, store, and prepare a BARF diet. But I am comparing kibbles, and as they go, the list tells the tale. You didn't really think you'd slip peas and carrots, sweet potatoes and apples by me? :)

I have nothing against feeding vegetables to dogs if you have the knowledge and belief that they are good for them, and I think some veggies mixed into a high-meat-protein food are a good addition on occasion.

But my belief is that dogs should eat primarily meat. I know of no study that found domesticated dogs, wild dogs, or wolves eating peas and sweet potatoes in the wild when they had a choice of foods. Dogs also lack the molar teeth that
are used primarily to chew and grind up grains and vegetables so they can mix well with digestive enzymes. On the other hand, their teeth evolved as, and remain as, pointed teeth that are suitable for
tearing flesh, but poor at chewing. Dogs also have relatively short intestinal tracts. Herbivores and omnivores have longer digestive tracts because it takes longer to break down vegetable matter. Carnivores typically have short intestinal tracts because meat will rot in the gut if it is maintained inside the body too long.

> Barry wrote: You'll need to feed more of Wellness because it has a relatively
> low ME (Metabolic Energy) which is the total amount of energy per day your
> dog gets from the food. Might be a good choice for an older or inactive dog."

> AngelBunny wrote: ...we feed Wellness to our personal dogs and our fosters.
> Golly! if Wellness is as you say--"...a good choice for an older or inactive
> dog"--I couldn't live with our two girls if
we fed another food.
> Both have very high energy levels...

God Bless your dogs for doing well on Wellness. But this does not change the fact that it "has a relatively low ME (Metabolic Energy)." If your dogs do well on it, then they apparently have metabolisms and live in a temperature zone and get a particular amount of activity, and etc. etc. that make Wellness an appropriate food for them. However, equating extra calories and nutrients with excess energy is not a sound conclusion. If your dogs did eat Innova, they would more likely get fat as cows than start bouncing off the walls. Paradoxically, more nutrition does not always equal more energy and vigor. In most cases, in humans as well as dogs, it equals a big belly.

(BTW, I would be interested to know the weights and ages of your two girls because the "3-1/4 to 3-1/2 cups of Wellness" you give them per day--though hard to judge since I don't know about the dogs and because I am going by memory and a couple comparisons in my head only--sounds on the low side for adult Rotties unless they are rather small, or very fit like a breeding or show dog would be.)

[chris nanney]

Barry,

Are you saying that Canidae is a moderate calorie food or a moderate calorie food for a super premium? According to the baseline number and range for major good quality foods (355 and 300-400), Canidae's 466 would be quite high.

One clarification. The dog that gained weight on the Innova was about 2 when I fed her that food. When I fed her the Canidae, she was 7 and less active. That is why I felt I was heading down the same road again even though Canidae has fewer calories.

[BarryMcD]

> Chris Nanney wrote: Barry, Are you saying that Canidae is a moderate calorie
> food or a moderate calorie food for a super premium? According to
> the baseline number and range for major good quality foods (355 and 300-400),
> Canidae's 466 would be quite high.

Yeah, Chris, typing at 4:00 A.M. from memory is a great way to screw your statistics up! :(

I managed to get several things mixed up on the topic of ME (kcals) and what is high, moderate, and low. First, I was trying to fit everything on one scale that I was familiar with, but you are right, we need a separate scale for super premiums. Second, I got a few numbers mixed up. Between the two, (I hope people are reading this thread backwards) please just skip those couple paragraphs about 300-400 kcals being divided into three ranges. I just reread the entire post to punish myself, and I think everything else I stated is accurate.

Correction One: Forget the correspondence I suggested between 350 kcals/cup being the middle of the range and the AAFCO using 350 kcals/cup as their reference for balancing the rest of the diet. Actually, the AAFCO uses a reference of 3.5 kcals/GRAM, (not per cup). The 3.5 was transformed into 350, and the grams into cups in my late night reverie!

Correction Two: The 300--400 range is an older rule of thumb that, now that I think about it, would not apply to super premiums. If you took all the low quality and premium kibbles (what you would usually find in a supermarket or average pet store), the 300 = low calories, 350 = moderate calories, and 400 = high calories rule does works pretty very well. (We are talking Alpo and Science Diet through Iams, Eukanuba, up to Nutro which IMO is "almost" a super premium, and brands like that.) Most of these brands (except some of the higher quality premiums) contain approximately or exactly 3.5 kcals/gram--the AAFCO reference value.

But for the supers, we need a new and separate scheme!

Just to explain the reference value thing a bit: For a dog food to be balance, it must have a particular ratio of one nutrient to another. For example, Calcium, Magnesium, and Phosphorus all work together and must stay in a particular ratio with one another for optimum results. If you double the Calcium, you must double the other two. Another example: As you may know, Vitamins A and D are called fat soluble vitamins, and without fat in the digestive system, they will not be absorbed. So a dog food or human food must have an adequate amount of fat for these vitamins to be properly absorbed.

Now you could know precisely what all the ratios should be among the dozens of ingredients in dog kibble, but a ratio is not an amount, and that ratio could slide up and down in terms of the actual amount of all the nutrients.

For a simple example: Let's say the desired ratio between Calcium and Magnesium should be 2:1. What does that mean in terms of the amount the dog needs to eat each day? Nothing! It could ingest 100 mg. of Calcium and 50 mg. of Magnesium, and that would be 2:1. It could also ingest 600,000 mg. of Calcium and 300,000 mg. of Magnesium and we have the same 2:1 ratio. So what we need is a linchpin, a particular and appropriate AMOUNT of just ONE of the nutrients, and with that, we can calculate and fix the amounts of all the other nutrients using ratios.

It turns out the best nutrient to gauge a diet by is Energy Density, which is more commonly called Total Metabolic Energy or just ME. This is the number of calories you get not just from the sugars and carbohydrates, but also from the fats and proteins in the food. One reason Total ME is a good measure of how much to eat is because it actually adds together and accounts for four different types of nutrients: sugars, carbohydrates, fats, and proteins.) So, a bunch of scientists got together way back when and figured out the Total ME that humans need, that sheep need, that cats need, and that dogs need.

This Total ME is usually expressed in kcals (kilocalories) per cup, or kcals per gram. The amount a particular animal needs is expressed in kcals/day. And the kcals/day that are required for any animal is always based on the individual's body weight and age. So there are various charts and formulas that tell how many kcals/day an active adult male needs, or how many kcals/day a 100 lb. Rottweiler needs.

Now the organizations in charge of figuring out how much of what to feed to a dog discovered that dogs would get an appropriate amount of nutrition, with a good ratio of nutrients and in a reasonable daily amount of food if the Total ME for kibble was 3.5 kcals/gram. Using that as the reference value, you can now calculate the required amount of all the other nutrients by applying the ratios they should be in compared to the ME.

If the recommended ME is not correct for the species, if it is too high or too low, then the poor creature would have a very unhappy dinner! If the reference value for dogs was 10.5 kcals/gram, (WAY TOO HIGH), an average dog would end up eating about a teaspoon of food to satisfy its daily requirements. If the ME were mistakenly set at 0.5 kcals/gram, (WAY TOO LOW) the dog would have to eat 7 times as much food to get the correct nutrition that the appropriate 3.5 value gave. Instead of a Rottie eating maybe 6 cups of kibble per day, it would have to eat 49 cups! So, in the end, the 3.5 kcals/g is a value that gives a range of dog breed and sizes a proper amount of nutrition without requiring a dog to have to starve or stuff itself.

So 3.5 kcals/gram was set by various organizations as the appropriate reference amount for dogs. Unfortunately, the value was set many years ago, before we knew as much about canine nutrition as we do today, and before anything resembling a super premium kibble existed.

Although 3.5 kcals/g is still the official number, and the one followed religiously by most "lower quality" brands, most super premiums are based on a value between approx. 3.8--4.5 kcals/g., based on my observations. The reason the ME is higher now in super premiums is that scientists have found that dogs need more of some things than we thought, and also more things than we thought! To maintain the all-important nutritional ratio, if we add more of some things, or add new things, we need to add more of almost everything else to maintain the ratio.

So what value constitutes a high energy food that a lure coursing, racing, or agility dog would need? What value represents a moderate amount of energy that most pets would need? And what value represents the low end, where couch potatoes or senior dogs, or sick dogs can find a food that will not make them overweight?

Although the 300-350-400 rule of thumb worked well years ago and still works well with supermarket and medium quality brands of kibble, you hit the nail on the head when you asked if there were different values for super premiums. Yes, there must be!

The values I will suggest are based on my own observations and experience, and a pile of printout I have in front of me with the ME's of dozens of super premiums listed. No official body has created a Super Premium Reference Value yet! So I am making one as we speak. :D

They seem to range from a low of about 320 to a high in the upper 500's. As a matter of fact, from the foods I have data on Innova is the highest with 557, but I know there are others that go higher. At 600 and up, you'll find the "super high energy" or "Hunting DOg" or "Power" formulas that are made for sports dogs, sled dogs, and the like. For Alaskan sled dogs, we get into 1000's of kcals/day!

So if I round off the upper and lower limits so I end up with nice simple units of 100, I would say the super premiums fall between 300-600 kcals/g. You can see this is a wider range than the 300-400 we were talking about. That is because, unlike the cheaper manufacturers, super premium manufacturers really do have philosophies and strong feelings about what dogs should eat, and these philosophies vary greatly, from Bil Jac's "All meat" concept to the salad bar approach of many organic holistic veggie-filled brands (which all seem to come from California, by the way!) :) So the more individualistic approaches of the supers account for a wider range of calories and a greater choice. Think your dog should have lots of fat? We have that. Think your dog should have very little fat? We have that one too. And so on.

The way the brands seem to group is in intervals of 40, 60, or 80, like this:

300-->340 The absolute lowest calorie supers and many Senior or Weight Loss Formulas.

340-->380 The medium-low calorie foods--still some Senior Formulas, and more major brands starting to appear (Eagle Pack, Canidae's new Platinum Senior Formula, Nutro, and, BTW, many of the poorer quality Would-Be-Super-Premiums like Eukanuba.)

380-->420 The "middle" of the pack, with many major brands appearing here: Bil Jac, Flint River Ranch.

420-480-->I guess you'd call it the medium high range. Brands such as Canidae, and a few "Active Dog" or "Power" formulas start to appear.

480-520-->High calorie!--California Natural comes in at 511, for example.

520-->600--> Super high, mega-dose nuclear jalapano kibble! Innova, and the beginning of "Sports" and "Super High Energy" formulas for working dogs, athletes, etc. Air is getting thin: fewer brands up here.

So, I have tried to make sense of what I got all jumbled up the first time. To now reevaluate the three brands we have been discussing, in our new scheme of super premiums, Wellness is still at the very low end, Canidae has slipped upwards a but from moderate to moderately-high, and Innova has stayed where it truly belongs, with the highest of the high. That's my revised calorie forecast!

[AngelBunny]

BarryMcD:

Very interesting, informative comments; I read them with great interest. What is your background?

My dogs are very fit; I see to that. I don't believe working dogs should be fat. I believe there're many more problems associated with being too fat than slightly on the too lean side. I've never had a hefty Rottie and I can't imagine ever having one.

Our youngest girl (2-1/2 yo +/-, abt 24") is compact. Mox weighs about 58 lbs.

Our 3 yo girl (26") is very poorly bred--rangy, long--a joke, sad to say--in both looks and temperament. (Nervous, high strung, a jittery dog--a special needs child.) Tula weighs about 66 lbs.

Our 7 yo male foster (27") weighs about 87 lbs. This is a perfect weight for his poor conformation.

I'm sure people would say all my dogs are too thin. I think they're all perfect weights for their builds and my expectations for all of them.

Mox is my show dog--she just got her CD & I'll soon be x-raying her to ensure she's sound enough for open work. I have us signed up for a tracking seminar in the fall & if she shows talent, will put a TD on her. My SO will also be making her a cart.

Mox is a highly energetic, smart dog who needs alot of physical & mental work to keep her in line. The way she flies around our fields, jumping over fallen trees and obstacles in her path, the way she tries to climb trees after chipmunks & squirrels, and charges thru the swamps on our property--no, fat wouldn't be good for her.

[chris nanney]

Thanks for the informative reply Barry. Is there a reason you're compiling this data other than personal interest?

I do have a question though. How do you, I or anyone else know that what is claimed for calorie content is true? It is my understanding that what is claimed on the bag can be off by 15%. These claims could be off by much more if no one is checking for accuracy.

I have seen charts that give the ingredients, guaranteed analysis, and calorie content of various foods. Many times there is no rhyme or reason to the differences in calorie content between foods.

I wish an independent organization would test the content claimed on the bags.

[matt4800]

Hey,

Thank you for everyone that replied.

Your posts were very helpful and well thought out. After reading them all, we have decided to go with Canidae.

Abby is an average size female and I feel like the higher Calorie and ME type foods might be too much, and from your descriptions it sounds like Canidae would be the best match with Abby's needs and lifestyle.

Once again thanks for your replies,

Matt

[BarryMcD]

> AngelBunny wrote: Very interesting, informative comments; I read them with
> great interest. What is your background?

I assume you are referring to nutrition background, so I will stick to that. Both my wife and I are DOG LOVERS, and we have 5 dogs, 4 of which are rescues. I am a fanatic and compulsive reader and researcher on any topic that catches my interest. When we rescued and obtained our second dog, Cheyenne, a then 1 yr. old Rottie mix, we discovered at the end of her first year with us (age 2 now) that she was quickly developing hip dysplasia, had some bone spurs developing on her spine, and was starting to suffer from allergies. A year later she was diagnosed with hypothyroidism, which had gone undiagnosed for who knows how long, and as a result, she had developed a thickened heart muscle and the start of congestive heart failure.

At that point I became very &%*#$-off! I was angry and felt so badly for this dog, I wanted to understand everything there was to know about all these diseases, and particularly how nutrition and activity, at various life stages, contributed to these.

Over a period of a year or more, I slowly but surely added nutritional research on dogs in general, and specifically on Rotties, to my daily reading and Internet research orgies. Early on, we switched from I am ashamed to say to super premium kibble, which I was not going to do without every scrap of info I could get about every major brand, so, as I was learning more about the specific needs of Rotties, I was also assembling extensive nutritional files on each brand, talking to folks in nutrition forums, and regularly calling up or e-mailing representatives from Innova, Canidae, FRR, and a number of other companies--pestering the heck out of them for all the info they don't and won't put on the bag! Annoyed the heck out of some reps, but made some friends and contacts, too.

The last part of the story is that in the fall of 2001, the Rottie of someone I knew, who had mated with a Husky, had a litter of 10! The person was frantic to give away the pups, and so I agreed to take one as soon the litter reached 9 weeks. I agreed for a couple reasons. First, that litter would reach 9 weeks the day before Christmas, 2002. Second, although all our dogs are shared equally between my wife and I, she has always considered that Rottie rescue, Cheyenne, as "her" dog. She absolutely loves Rotties, and although she would never make the slightest complaint about having to work extra hard to keep Cheyenne as healthy as we could, I sensed that she would be happy with a Rottie pup that would hopefully turn out to be more active and healthier than poor Cheyenne. Finally, I had NO IDEA what to get my wife for Christmas that year! Now, you can attribute all this to fate, serendipity, or the will of God, but a Rott/Husky pup was being put into my hands just when I had a wonderful use for it. I won't get too sentimental here, but I wish you could have seen my wife's face on Christmas morning when I tiptoed out of the bedroom without waking her, got the 9 week old ball of fluff that my son had helped me hide upstairs all night, and then tiptoed back in and placed the pup in front of my wife's face and let it wake her! :)

To complete the answer to your question, when I knew we would be getting that Rottie pup, and with poor Cheyenne's condition in mind, I went through an intensive two-month investigation on large breed puppy nutrition, and became a self-taught expert on the subject. I WAS NOT GOING TO LET ANYTHING THAT I DID--THE FOOD I FED, THE TYPE OF EXERCISE I ENCOURAGED, ETC.--CONTRIBUTE TO ANY HEALTH PROBLEMS IN THIS NEW PUP!

And now I try to spread the word on two particular subjects.

1) TO ROTTIE PUP OWNERS: Please learn about the nutritional needs of this breed, which are vastly different from all smaller breeds. In particular, know that feeding a large breed pup a high calcium and/or high ME diet will greatly increase the chances of the dog getting hip dysplasia and other skeletal disorders later in life. Again, the following document is posted in several places on the web: please do a search and read it if you have a Rottie pup! ""Relationship of Nutrition to Developmental Skeletal Disease in Young Dogs" by Daniel C. Richardson, published in "Veterinary Clinical Nutrition." What you could unknowingly be doing to your Rottie pups by feeding the wrong foods is tragic!

2) AGAIN TO ROTTIE PUP OWNERS: The key motto in raising a Rott is "GROW SLOW!" This means the dog should be kept close to the low end of its weight range until it reaches skeletal maturity. It will thrive better on "just adequate" nutrition than on "superior nutrition." Read the previous post by AngelBunny: No Rott should be overweight or "hefty." When in the peek of health, these dogs are have a well-sloped bottom line and are made of muscle. Because a Rott is "only a pet" does not change what is healthy and what is not! Every Rott should be a "working dog" of some sort! However: pups should be gently exercised until they are at least 6 months old--minimizing stair climbing, jumping, hard extended running, and any activity that puts stain on the rear legs in particular.

A recent study showed that all breeds of dogs will live close to two years longer if maintained for life on a minimal diet--that is, healthy and slim!

3) FOR ROTTIE ADULT OWNERS: Have your dog's thyroid checked periodically, especially if there is the slightest evidence of an overweight condition, inactivity, hair loss, or allergy symptoms. Our Cheyenne suffered "allergies" for a year until our vet--and she is a good one in general--checked and found the dog had actually been hypothyridic for over a year! Know that thyroid problems OFTEN are masked because they coexist with allergy symptoms, or because they are mistaken for allergy symptoms. Finally, what is called a "full panel" is required to properly diagnose a thyroid problem in dogs. Simpler blood tests often give false negative results! If you have concerns about your vet's ability to look into thyroid problems, or if you just want the best from the start, look up Dr. Jean Dodds. She knows more about canine thyroid glands than anyone in the world! Check out her information form and web site at: http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-...dsInfoForm.htm She charges less than most vets for testing that will be state-of-the-art! You can also do a search on her name to locate countless articles by her on the net: She is into so many great things she has to be the Mother Teresa of the canine world! Greyhound Adoption. A canine blood bank: Hemopet at http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/HEMOPET.HTM

So, AngelBunny, I hope that answers you question, and thanks for giving me another opportunity to advertise and spread the word about these things. :p