Wellness vs. Canidae vs. Innova

[BarryMcD]

> AngelBunny wrote: Very interesting, informative comments; I read them with
> great interest. What is your background?

I assume you mean nutritional background, so I will stick to that. Both my wife and I are DOG LOVERS, and we have 5 dogs, 4 of which are rescues. I am a fanatic and compulsive reader and researcher on any topic that catches my interest. When we rescued and obtained our second dog, Cheyenne, a then 1 yr. old Rottie mix, we discovered at the end of her first year with us (at age 2) that she was quickly developing hip dysplasia, had some bone spurs developing on her spine, and was starting to suffer from allergies. A year later she was diagnosed with hypothyroidism, which had gone undiagnosed for who knows how long, and as a result, she had developed a thickened heart muscle and the start of congestive heart failure.

At that point I became very &%*@-off! I was angry and felt so badly for this dog, I wanted to understand everything there was to know about all these diseases, and particularly how nutrition and activity, at various life stages, contributed to them.

Over a period of a year or more, I slowly but surely added nutritional research on dogs in general, and specifically on Rotties, to my daily reading and Internet research orgies. Early on, we switched from I am ashamed to say what brand to super premium kibble, which I was not going to do without every scrap of info I could get about every major brand, so, as I was learning more about the specific needs of Rotties, I was also assembling extensive nutritional files on each brand, talking to folks in nutrition forums, and regularly calling up or e-mailing representatives from Innova, Canidae, FRR, and a number of other companies--pestering the heck out of them for all the info they don't and won't put on the bag! Annoyed the heck out of some reps, but made some friends and contacts, too.

The last part of the story is that in the fall of 2001, the Rottie of someone I knew, who had mated with a Husky, had a litter of 10! The person was frantic to give away the pups, and so I agreed to take one as soon the litter reached 9 weeks. I agreed for a couple reasons. First, that litter would reach 9 weeks the day before Christmas, 2002. Second, although all our dogs are shared equally between my wife and I, she has always considered that Rottie rescue, Cheyenne, as "her" dog. She absolutely loves Rotties, and although she would never make the slightest complaint about having to work extra hard to keep Cheyenne as healthy as we could, I sensed that she would be happy with a Rottie pup that would hopefully turn out to be more active and healthier than poor Cheyenne. Finally, I had NO IDEA what to get my wife for Christmas that year! Now, you can attribute all this to fate, serendipity, or the will of God, but a Rott/Husky pup was being put into my hands just when I had a wonderful use for it. I won't get too sentimental here, but I wish you could have seen my wife's face on Christmas morning when I tiptoed out of the bedroom without waking her, got the 9 week old ball of fluff that my son had helped me hide upstairs all night, and then tiptoed back in and placed the pup in front of my wife's face and let it wake her! :) :) :)

To complete the answer to your question, when I knew we would be getting that Rottie pup, and with poor Cheyenne's condition in mind, I went through an intensive two-month investigation on large breed puppy nutrition, and became a self-taught expert on the subject. I WAS NOT GOING TO LET ANYTHING THAT I DID--THE FOOD I FED, THE TYPE OF EXERCISE I ENCOURAGED, ETC.--CONTRIBUTE TO ANY HEALTH PROBLEMS IN THIS NEW PUP!

And now I try to spread the word on three particular subjects to Rottie owners.

1) TO ROTTIE PUP OWNERS: Please learn about the nutritional needs of this breed, which are vastly different from all smaller breeds. In particular, know that feeding a large breed pup a high calcium and/or high ME diet will greatly increase the chances of the dog getting hip dysplasia and other skeletal disorders later in life. Again, the following document is posted in several places on the web: please do a search and read it if you have a Rottie pup! "Relationship of Nutrition to Developmental Skeletal Disease in Young Dogs" by Daniel C. Richardson, published in "Veterinary Clinical Nutrition." What you could unknowingly be doing to your Rottie pups by feeding the wrong foods is tragic!

2) AGAIN TO ROTTIE PUP OWNERS: The key motto in raising a Rott is "GROW SLOW!" This means the dog should be kept close to the low end of its weight range until it reaches skeletal maturity. It will thrive better on "just adequate" nutrition than on "superior nutrition." Read the previous post by AngelBunny: No Rott should be overweight or "hefty." In the peak of health, these dogs have a well-sloped bottom line and are made of muscle. Because a Rott is "only a pet" does not change what is healthy and what is not! Every Rott should be a "working dog" of some sort! However: pups should be gently exercised until they are at least 6 months old--minimizing stair climbing, jumping, hard extended running, and any activity that puts strain on the rear legs in particular.

A recent study showed that all breeds of dogs will live close to two years longer if maintained for life on a minimal diet--that is, healthy and slim!

3) FOR ROTTIE ADULT OWNERS: Have your dog's thyroid checked periodically, especially if there is the slightest evidence of an overweight condition, inactivity, hair loss, or allergy symptoms. Our Cheyenne suffered "allergies" for a year until our vet--and she is a good one in general--checked and found the dog had actually been hypothyridic for over a year! Know that thyroid problems OFTEN are masked because they coexist with allergy symptoms, or because they are mistaken for allergy symptoms. Finally, what is called a "full panel" is required to properly diagnose a thyroid problem in dogs. Simpler blood tests often give false negative results! If you have concerns about your vet's ability to look into thyroid problems, or if you just want the best from the start, look up Dr. Jean Dodds. She knows more about canine thyroid glands than anyone in the world! Check out her information form and web site at: http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-...dsInfoForm.htm She charges less than most vets for testing that will be state-of-the-art! You can also do a search on her name to locate countless articles by her on the net: She is into so many great things she has to be the Mother Teresa of the canine world! Greyhound Adoption. A canine blood bank: Hemopet at http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/HEMOPET.HTM

So, AngelBunny, I hope that answers your question, and thanks for giving me another opportunity to advertise and spread the word about these things. :p

[BarryMcD]

Originally posted by chris nanney
Thanks for the informative reply Barry. Is there a reason you're compiling this data other than personal interest?

See the previous post addressed to AngelBunny. Everyone wants to know! :)

I wish an independent organization would test the content claimed on the bags.

One does: the AAFCO. See below. Also many independent magazines, journals, and researchers publish reviews of particular brands from time to time.

I do have a question though. How do you, I or anyone else know that what is claimed for calorie content is true? It is my understanding that what is claimed on the bag can be off by 15%. These claims could be off by much more if no one is checking for accuracy.

Regarding not just calories, but all nutrients, pet food is primarily regulated by the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO). They require that all pet food companies test their own food in one of two ways.

1) STANDARDIZED ANIMAL FEEDING TRIALS:
Using guidelines established by the AAFCO, a certain number of animals, in this case dogs, must be fed for 6 months strictly on the food product being evaluated. The group of dogs is monitored closely and the health of the dogs is evaluated at the end of the trail.

If this method is used, you will see a message on the product's label stating something like this:

"Animal feeding tests based on AAFCO procedures show that XXXX Food for dogs provides complete and balanced nutrition for all life stages."

However, since a separate regulation requires companies to place the amounts of certain nutrients and a list of ingredients on the label, obviously each company must analyze its food chemically in order to provide this information.

2) NUTRITIONAL PROFILE
Instead of doing a feeding trial, a manufacturer can instead analyze the composition of their food and compare it to a "nutritional profiles" established by the AAFCO which is based on a range (maximum--minimum) for each required nutrient.

The label of a product tested this way will say:

"XXXX Food for dogs meets the nutritional levels established by the AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profiles for all life stages."

There is some debate about which method best assures the healthiness of the food. I myself prefer to see the first method used because then you have, in a sense, double insurance. You know a varied group of animals lived well for 6 months on this food, but since the manufacturer has to list the ingredients and amount of certain nutrients anyway, you get both!

There is a lot of criticism of the AAFCO guidelines by many groups, especially those who favor holistic, all-natural, or high-energy power formulas. Many say the AAFCO guidelines are too lax and take too long to reflect the latest research.

So, I temper what the AAFCO says by researching other sources of information. Basically, I take the AAFCO nutritional guidelines as a "Minimum" daily requirement" for most nutrients, and then research the needs of particular breeds or age groups and add this into the equation.

The amount of many particular nutrients in the AAFCO profile (and some not required by the AAFCO at all) is hotly debated, also. For example, there has been an on-going debate about whether Vitamin C is good for dogs. The AAFCO does not require any. This is because dogs, unlike humans, can manufacture their own Vitamin C. There are some folks that claim large doses of C have great benefits for the dog. (Innova paid a particular vet who had done mega-dose Vitamin C testing as one of its nutritional advisors, and so Innova contains a whopping 500 mg. of C, the highest you will find among the best known super premiums. On the other hand, other test indicate that extra C is bad for dogs, one study associating it with an increase of certain cancers.

Since it is not required, most super premiums only add a small amount (along with tocopherols, or Vitamin E) to act as a preservative. Usually about 35 mg./kg. of C is added for preserving dog food. By using C & E as preservatives, the foods can be declared "All Natural" and "No Artificial Preservatives." The poorer quality brands use artificial preservatives instead, but some, ironically, will add Vitamin C also, as though it were an added supplement.

Personally, I believe a dog needs no Vitamin C to be healthy, that small amounts from occasional fresh veggies or fruits are fine, but that large doses are very unwise and risky.

Chris, I have read claims that the claimed amount of calories or other nutrients can be inaccurate. I have two opposite answers to this.

First, there are so many dog advocates out there that are, I am sure well-meaning, but also out in left field or just looking for some recognition I guess, that you can find a complaint on just about anything in any dog food. Vitamin C is killing your dog! Not enough Vitamin C is killing your dog. Feed high protein, low fat. Feed high protein, high fat. Dogs should eat vegetables. No they shouldn't. There is sawdust in brand XXX. There is gasoline in brand YYY. And so on.

So, when I hear it said that the values on the label may be wrong, I will not accept that as true until I see some believable studies--done by scientists, not dog food companies or advocacy groups! So, at this time, I have no reason to believe that the values are intentionally wrong, or wrong at all to any extent.

The other answer is that there are sound reasons why the values on a label MAY be incorrect SOMETIMES! The main reason is that many nutrients are not stable and as time goes by, they degrade. Most are also degraded by heat. So the nutrients in a fresh bag of Canidae kept in a cool, dry place, are going to match the label pretty well. But if you have a bag that has been sitting in a hot pantry for 6 months, who knows what the values will be. So, for the same reason, a manufacturer's distribution network and storage practices may affect the food. I always check the dates on the bag, and then call the company and ask how long their food will stay fresh after that date. Some brands will say this on the label next to the date.

There is an entirely separate discussion that I won't go into here about the bioavailability of each nutrient. Some nutrients are antagonistic, and when taken together, you do not absorb as much of one or the other. Some minerals, in particular, can be supplied in various forms, and one form may be easily absorbed while the other is poorly absorbed. The PH of the food determines how well other nutrients are absorbed. So, I wouldn't worry much about the amounts listed on the bag being perfectly accurate: the truth is no dog ever gets that amount of all the nutrients into its system anyway.

So the only advice I can give about getting what you pay for is: 1) Do some research, including calling or e-mailing the company and asking some hard questions, 2) Find a brand that you can trust--based on the testimonials of other consumers, and by reading articles and comparisons in independent journals like The Whole Dog Journal, and 3) Observe your dog carefully and know what a good coat should look like, the energy level that should be expected, and so on--for that breed.

Many times there is no rhyme or reason to the differences in calorie content between foods.

Different brands have different philosophies. Some believe a dog should have a high calorie moderate protein diet, others say high protein, low fat, etc. You are seeing THEIR philosophies. What a responsible owner must do is determine his own philosophy and what is right for his dog, and then find a food that fit THAT.

I suggest as a starting point for anyone wishing to learn more about dog food contents, labeling and testing:

The Pet Food Report

http://www.petfoodreport.com/#complete

The AAFCO Official Website
(You can order publications from them here.)

http://www.aafco.org/

One of many copies of the AAFCO Guidelines on the Internet: (Keep in mind this is for "all dogs." The guidelines vary for pups and large breeds. And read the footnotes! Also, you can click Home from this page to go to a menu of other nutritional info.)

http://www.peteducation.com/article....&articleid=662

Another AAFCO Guideline chart, but this one has the Puppy Guidelines, too.

http://petplace.netscape.com/netscap...asp?artID=3425

Happy feeding,

[AngelBunny]

BarryMcD:

Thank you.

Very informative, thought-provoking post.