Commercial Breeders/Kennels -VS- Puppy Mills

[Xena's Daddy]

Is there even a difference???

MK

[poohbearsmom]

When you say "commercial", I read: Primary source of income.

Taking care of one litter at a time is a full time job in and of itself. When a breeder has 2, 3, 4 or more litters on the ground at the same time, it's much more difficult to do things correctly. It is enough work to care for and socialize one litter properly, along with taking care of the dam's needs during this time. It's gets respectively more difficult to nearly impossible to do things properly when that number goes up.

When one is depending upon breeding as a primary source of income, then ethics and doing right by the dogs tends to fly right out the window for a lot of people. The bottom line is the bottom line when the electric bill and the mortgage depend upon puppy sales.

Some commercial breeders do use very nice lines and very nice dogs, and that's all fine and good, but in the end, it's the care taken with the litter and the dam (she is a vessel we are using, afterall) that is the most important aspect of this, IMHO. In addition, will that commercial breeder really be there for you after they've collected that money for you?

And then there's the placement of the puppies to think about. If one is spitting out 20+ pups a month, how does one screen homes properly.... or does it even matter at that point?

[Reaper08]

As I am sure more educated people then myself will tell u there is a world of difference between the three. My current puppy Link is from a byb, had I found this site before I got then I wouldn't have gotten him. A COE breeder puts a lot of thought and care into the two the dogs that he breeds where as the other two are all about money. The difference in temperment is unbelievable as well as the chances of health problems. Seeing as how my dog is still a puppy his future health is about as uncetain as it comes. There is no 100% guarantee of a dogs future health but at least precautions can be taken. The worst thing IMO is that the mills and the bybs will sell to anyone and people that dont deserve a wonderful dogs such as the rottweiler will come home with them and then give up on them when the going gets tough. Thats being said I am sure others will explain the difference much better then myself.

[brunie's mom]

Yes...I think there is...though I would not get a puppy from either one of them.
Some large scale commercial breeders do health certifications and do title their dogs....but they are doing this for a living. Most often the dogs are well looked after...clean and well fed, and given vet care...but how much attention can you give a kennel full of dogs?? Also, puppies are raised in a kennel....not a great place to be socialized and well balanced for 8 weeks.

Puppy mills don't do any health testing on their breeding dogs...usually squeeze out as many litters as they can from a dog...they don't care about quality...just quantity. The bottom line and making money from these dogs is what is important to them. If they can cut costs on food,care and vet bills they will.
They are also making their living from their dogs.

Gina

[Xena's Daddy]

These are my thoughts exactly!! As some of you may know, I lost my 7-1/2 year old Xena several weeks ago from OS, so I'm still mourning her loss, but trying to move on the best I can for now. I made attempts over this weekend to contact several reputable east coast breeders with the intention of talking/meeting with them & their dogs, but no real leads as of yet. I'm not ready for another 'best friend' just yet, but I know there's typically a wait for quality puppies and wanted to get the ball rolling.

Which leads me to this thread:

Yesterday was my Birthday, and when asked what I wanted to do in the afternoon, I suggested playing with puppies! (Gotta' LOVE puppies!!) My girlfriend thought it sounded like fun too, so off we went.

Now, the only place I know of on the Island to commercially purchase a locally-bred Rottweiler is the place where I got Xena originally. I haven't been there in 7-years, but as it turns out, they still 'specialize' in Rottweilers. It's a 'commercial kennel' that's been there for almost 50-years, been breeding Rotties almost 30. It's clean, nice, & friendly........and BUSY!! There were quite a few people out there when we pulled up. And the place in the middle of nowhere, no less. Really quite a ride for most Long Islanders. I guess they advertise well. (Hmmm...?)
They also 'professionally breed' 15-20 other dog breeds on the premises, but none as prolific as their Rotties. (Hmmm.......??)

Anyway, we played with 6-different Rottie-pups out in the play yard they have out back. (After all, it's the only reason we went there.....to play with puppies!!) It's a lush green lawn area with boarding kennels along one side, and 5-6 different play-pen areas, each of about 20' x 30', each with several pups in them. Out front (Behind a white picket fence) is a row of kennels with about 10-12 adult Rotties in them. This is where they keep their breeding stock, and most of them are really nice dogs. (A few were flying off the walls with saliva spewing out of their mouths, but most were just excited & wanted to be pet) It was a nice setup. Very professional. Also, the puppies are all microchipped, de-wormed, & vaccinated.

All the puppies we saw happen to have been littermates. And georgeous little puppies, to boot. One in particular was such a little sweetheart, I played with her for a 1/2 hour!! I think my face still smells like puppy!! LOL..........

Anyway, after we left, my girlfriend said to me, "I can't help feeling like there isn't any good reason NOT buy a puppy from them. After all, Xena was a GREAT dog!" I had to agree with her, to an extent......except of course for the tell-tale signs of a 'mill-type' atmosphere. That, and Xena's elbow dysplaysia............

First of all, they keep the Rottie puppies until they are 4-months old. (Used to be 3-months, back when I got Xena) When asked why, they told me it's for health reasons. (?) This way, they have all their vaccinations before they leave & are a little more mature. (??)
What happened to 7-8 weeks being the ideal time for separating them from their littermates??

Secondly, NO buyer interview what-so-ever, just like last time. I could've been ANYBODY......whichever one I wanted would've been mine......as long as I had the ca$h. They DID successfully assist me in selecting Xena based on what I told them I wanted in a dog, but only after I suggested it. (???)

Also, the 'breeding stock' out front........who has the time to play with all these beautiful animals? Do they receive excercise & socilaization?? They very well may, for all I know.........I just think it would be a full-time job to do it right. (Hmmm........) Also, no show or working titles on their 'product line'. A few turned up in Xena's pedigree, but I suppose that's kind of inevitable given a few generations worth of dogs.

They do have all AKC registered dogs/bitches, and they are all OFA'd for hips, with certificates attached to the pedigrees. But that's it. Nothing further. When I asked them why they don't at least include elbow certifications, I was told that "That's unnecessary. Anyone who does that is just using it for marketing!"
Imagine that???! Marketing?? It's exactly the people who DO have all the health certifications in place that do NOT 'market' their 'product'. (Jeeezz..........) Which is evident by the fact that they're not exactly the easiest people to track down.

So it was things like this that made me ponder all evening, was this a commercial breeder? Or was it a puppy mill?? Or, as the thread title suggests, is there even a difference???

Regards,
MK

P.S. When I explained all this to my girlfriend, she now sees the other side of the fence. But of course, being a kind-hearted woman, she said it makes her want to 'rescue' the little guys & give them a good home even more. (Agghhhh!!!) Which is exactly how I think these places stay in business for so long. They make it sooo easy......just show up with money, and go home with a dog. Just like groceries.
No wonder this is such a problem in this country................

[poohbearsmom]

Ding ding ding!

You can also tell your girlfriend that by "rescueing" a puppy from them - and I'd be willing to bet that rescueing a puppy from them would set you back a penny or two (lol) - you would be perpetuating their ability to continue doing what they're doing.

Keep hunting down breeders that you feel offer what you want; in regards to not only the dogs, but also the human involved in producing the dogs.... both are important, and they're around.

[brunie's mom]

Glad that you are thinking about things.
Not only did your girl have elbow dysplasia, but to have died that young with cancer would also make me not even think of getting a dog from that kennel.

If they are only selling the pups at 4 months of age...and keeping them together and not really socializing them....that is awful too. It would be really hard to house train a 4 month old pup that has been allowed to poop and pee in a kennel area also.

I would stay away from any place or anybody that is making their living selling dogs...these are puppy farmers. Also you say they have many other breeds there? That to me sounds like a clean mill. It's a puppy mill, but the surroundings are clean.

Having no titles also is bad. How would these puppy farmers know that their breeding stock is breed worthy??
As you know Rottweilers have way more problems then just hips...passing OFA hips scores does not make a Rottweiler breed worthy.

Keep looking for a good COE breeder....it will be worth it. Try hanging out and some dog shows...not only AKC but some of the German style Sieger shows. There should be many good dogs at these shows, that have good owners and breeders.

Gina

[hokisteph5]

I'll keep looking, but a year or two ago I came across a great link. It discussed the differences between the hobby breeder, commercial kennel, back yard breeder, puppy mill, etc.

ETA: Not sure if this is the same link, but has definitions of the above terms.

[Xena's Daddy]

Originally Posted by poohbearsmom

Ding ding ding!

You can also tell your girlfriend that by "rescueing" a puppy from them - and I'd be willing to bet that rescueing a puppy from them would set you back a penny or two (lol) - you would be perpetuating their ability to continue doing what they're doing.

LOL........Exactly!! About $1,250!! And when I started to explain the perpetuation problem to her, she went ahead & said it herself before I could finish! LOL........ So I think these things are obvious.....at least, to some. Too bad the understanding of these simple facts isn't more wide-spread.....

Thanks for the input,
MK

P.S. I just got off the phone with the President of the Colonial Rottweiler Club, (Tony Diccico) and we had a very good conversation. I'll be meeting with him in the next couple of weeks, along with his 2-year old bitch. (CH Rottstar All About Antren) I'm looking forward to it!
I think I'm making some headway!

[Xena's Daddy]

Hokisteph5,

Great article, thanks for the link!!

MK

[Marcino]

I take my hat off to you! Just by going to play with the pups could have been setting yourself up for "disaster." I know for myself it is really tough turning my back on a pup that I could give a wonderful home to. Like you, my first rott Chino is the product of a puppymill. I went into a petstore to pick up cat food and walked out with a $2000+ BYB rottweiler!

My friend called me up the other day to tell me that she had seen a rottweiler at a local pet store... of course with my curious nature, I had to go and see. The poor little guy was slightly over 3 months of age and he couldn't have weighed more than 15lbs. My heart absolutely broke and I could have easily been suckered into paying the $900 asking price... but I vowed never again after learning everything I did on these forums about BYB's.

If we can educate one person at a time, our efforts are worth it!