People are so ignorant

[Mick Trainer]

Fatal Dog Attacks by Karen Delise has some very good information on the common traits among dogs who bite. Karen simply discusses what she believes in regards dogs being outside and has written more in regardss to tethering a dog that actually having the dog live otuside. You stated that you were simply stating statistics but as yet I see no statistics to directly support this as, as far as I know, no one has collated this information as it would be very difficult to collect. It is difficult enough to gain information regarding truly tangable information regarding dogs attacks. I have tried to collect as much info regarding dogs attacks as I can over the years as I have debated with politicians BSL and other legislative changes related to such things and in the end most studies have looked at breed, sex, entire or desexed, location, child or adult, needing hospitalisation. I have not found one true study that has looked at care etc and this is why I ask you to produce such statistics as to find this study would be extremely interesting. So I again ask that you produce the actual study that found the statistics that supports what you said.

However in the end if you seek to look at statistics only as you sought to support your idea that it is the dog being outside that is the problem then you must also see that in the end Rotts do not sit well in this regard. Our breed has a "major commanality" in dog attack statistics yet we as owner/lovers of this breed choose to look at what other influences create this situation as to the outsider it is the breed that is the problem. I have simply pointed out the flaws in the arguement about the dog being outside. As it is not simply that a dog is a Rottweiler that makes it bite someone it is not simply that a dog is kept outside that makes this dog become aggressive.

but I'm sure the poster said BANISHED to the backyard. The OP did indeed but also wrote "Then they go on to say the dog lives outside, alone." Also again I state that whilst this could indeed have had an influence upon such an incident it wasn't the only influence. The dog didn't become aggressive because it was left outside, it's genetics, handling etc had an influence upon the behavior as discussed above. Being left otuside (certainly constantly) may be a sign of a handler issue but it is not the cause of the problem. Many many dogs live outside alone and the vast, vast majority of them are happy healthy dogs.

Mick.

[skigod377]

Yes, you are right. I guess when I assume that a dog is chained, he/she is outside. Dogs who are outside and chained are more prone to bite. I do understand that when a dog is outside he is not necessarily chained. Either way, they are more likely to become territorial and bite. Socialization is key, as we both know, but I am sure you will come back and argue with me about something more. I dont claim to be an expert, but you are not going to change my mind about outside dogs being more likely to bite someone.


Chaining and Tethering | The Humane Society of the United States
HelpingAnimals.com // Help An Animal // Features // Chained Dogs: A Widespread, Serious Public Safety Threat

The Dangers of Leaving Your Dog Unsupervised

Dogs accused of biting unprovoked tend to fall into these general categories:

a dog left unsupervised in the owner's yard (tethered, caged, or loose), and a person or other animal ventures into the dog's range, and is bitten.

a dog left unsupervised in the yard (tethered, caged, or loose), which then "escapes", and bites unprovoked while at-large.

a dog whose owner deliberately allows it to be at-large, and the dog bites unprovoked.

Dogs that spend most of their time alone or only in the company of other dogs may
demonstrate fearful, aggressive or overactive behavior toward family members or strangers because they’ve never learned how to act around people.

Chaining results in aggression (26-28% of dogs involved in fatal attacks were chained at the time). (Dogbitelaw.com)

[Mick Trainer]

I must clarify that I am at no time linking a dog being outside and chained. By being outside I mean that the dog is in a safe, secure, private yard that cannot be easily accessed by strangers etc. In Australia we have very, very few dogs tethered outside at all. Most Australian residential yards have solid timber fences of at least 5'5" and many are like mine with 6'+ fences and thus have zero need to tether dogs and now days many famers with working farm dogs have enclosures so fewer and fewer of these dogs are tethered as well. Whilst I hear of a dog here or there that is tethered you just don't often see it here.

Either way, they are more likely to become territorial and bite. Just out of interest what is it about being outside (not chained) do you think makes a dog more territorial about it's yard than a dog that is kept inside does towards it's home?

but you are not going to change my mind about outside dogs being more likely to bite someone. Oh I wouldn't dream of it any more than the OP would have been able to changed the mind of the receptionist in the original post nor that I can convince many people that a dog is not aggressive simply due to it's breed.

Mick.

[skigod377]

Originally Posted by Mick Trainer

Either way, they are more likely to become territorial and bite. Just out of interest what is it about being outside (not chained) do you think makes a dog more territorial about it's yard than a dog that is kept inside does towards it's home?

but you are not going to change my mind about outside dogs being more likely to bite someone. Oh I wouldn't dream of it any more than the OP would have been able to changed the mind of the receptionist in the original post nor that I can convince many people that a dog is not aggressive simply due to it's breed.

Mick.

To the first, no. They both have the potential, and probably will, be territorial. An inside dog may or may not be better socialized than an outside dog, but being inside does not guarantee a dog being socialized properly. As you know, just because a dog is around people, does not make it socialized. I did say that in my original post, so I am not trying to state that a dog left inside will not be agressive. I was more stating that banishing a dog to the backyard will cause it to become aggressive... whether it is because of lack of interaction or territorialness is moot. That is how I feel anyway, though I should have specified that chained animals are the ones that have more of a propensity to bite. In America, a dog is banished to the backyard more often than not, and the only interaction it has is when it is fed and watered. Good pet owners are a minority in America, and that is a fact.

To the second, I surely hope that by having well trained, social dogs, we can all make a difference. Otherwise, our breed is going to continue to be persecuted and none of us will be happy. What is the point of having great dogs if we dont use them to try to change a mind or two? :)

[Obelix]

[quote=skigod377;817088]Yes, you are right. I guess when I assume that a dog is chained, he/she is outside. Dogs who are outside and chained are more prone to bite.


Chaining and Tethering | The Humane Society of the United States

Chaining results in aggression (26-28% of dogs involved in fatal attacks were chained at the time). (Dogbitelaw.com)

Chaining resluts in frustration and a build up frustration easily leads to a bite.

[damp]

Originally Posted by Mick Trainer

I must clarify that I am at no time linking a dog being outside and chained. By being outside I mean that the dog is in a safe, secure, private yard that cannot be easily accessed by strangers etc. In Australia we have very, very few dogs tethered outside at all. Most Australian residential yards have solid timber fences of at least 5'5" and many are like mine with 6'+ fences and thus have zero need to tether dogs and now days many famers with working farm dogs have enclosures so fewer and fewer of these dogs are tethered as well. Whilst I hear of a dog here or there that is tethered you just don't often see it here.

Either way, they are more likely to become territorial and bite. Just out of interest what is it about being outside (not chained) do you think makes a dog more territorial about it's yard than a dog that is kept inside does towards it's home?

but you are not going to change my mind about outside dogs being more likely to bite someone. Oh I wouldn't dream of it any more than the OP would have been able to changed the mind of the receptionist in the original post nor that I can convince many people that a dog is not aggressive simply due to it's breed.

Mick.

Thank you Mick (I remember why I love you too )

[mac 2]

all my rotts are outside dogs and they are far from been aggressive but they are working dogs and I spend alot of time with them outside.because i use them for my work

[sweetlee]

Interesting thread this has become.
I did not ask for clarification or get involved, because my other half was very ill, and I just sat there with him.
I am going to assume though that this dog lives outside AND is not socialized, played with or worked. That is what I meant by my outside dog comment.
I imagine a dog who "lives" outside if properly managed could be a nice dog. But I could never not have my boy inside with me. He just wants to be with me.
I also can see a lab (which are usually VERY high energy) who is not worked becoming aggressive out of sheer boredom. They are more energetic than our rotties are, and we know what happens to our breed if not excersised and challenged properly.
Oh and by the way, not one mention of this in the paper or on the news, even though the cops and animal control were called. I guess "Labrador mangles woman's arm" just isn't as interesting as "Rottweiler attacks Neighbor Woman".

Sharon

[TrinaJ]

I had my first Rotty Magnum until he passed away at the age of 8. Magnum was an inside/outside dog. He was never crated and was ALWAYS in a securly fenced yard with 6'4" electric gates and a fully fenced yard at the same height, plenty of shade and water. He was the most loving, kindhearted animal I've ever owned. Never once did he growl at anyone, he was loved by the staff at the vets and by all our neighbours and our relatives. He was a big bear. Just because a dog is outside, doesn't mean that it isn't loved, nor does it mean that they are ignored. Sometimes people just cant have dogs inside, its a simple fact.

My friend had a poodle who was an 'inside only' dog, it was the nastiest, grumpiest, horrid little dog that i have ever had the displeasure at meeting. He would bite people, snarl and bark at everyone. He was excused for this behaviour because he was small and 'couldn't do any damage'

It doesn't matter if the dog is inside or outside, its how the dog is treated that is the most important factor.

My dog Jett is outside a lot of the time (with us) we are outdoors people, i have a son who loves to play outside and i'll be damned if i keep either of them cooped up in a house all day. I think the air and the sunshine are beneficial to healthy children and animals. Jett is also inside when we are inside. Do i think her temprement would be different if she were an outside only dog, no, not in the slightest. She would still get the same love and attention she does now, its all about the people who have the dogs.

[stale]

Originally Posted by Gudrun's Mom

When ever a breed is popular the indiscrimiate breeding goes rampant. Temperament and health factors are not even consider as money is the driving force. Many people want to own that particular breed just because it's in vogue and they do not provide the proper time necessary to own a dog. Like others mentioned a neglected dog is a time bomb no matter what the breed.

In my area the "bully" dog of the neighborhood is a Chow. He has bitten several people, attacked several dogs plus it's not safe to be a cat in this area. Yet, when people walk past him and don't know him they thinks he's so cute and not threatening. It amazes me that the general population think cute and fluffy means non agressive.

fwiw, chows do tend to be agressive. they are heavily territorial, and they tend to bond to one person, not a whole family. *if* you are aware of this as a chow owner, there should be no issue, but if you just have a chow because they're "so cute and fluffy" then you'll have a potential dogbite coming.

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now, for where Mick is coming from. being an outside dog alone isn't a factor - it's the WAY that most dogs become "outside dogs" in north america. somewhere on this forum there's a fellow named Damp, who i believe keeps his dogs outdoors without a problem, in a proper run, socialised, etc.

the issue is that north american "outside dogs" quite often are just dogs chained/roped to a post, and they never get any socialisation. think about it - how often have you walked by a house with a yard that has a dog that's going ballistic at the fenceline? that obviously spends most of it's time outside without shelter or anything to keep them occupied? [b]these[b] are the dogs that folks generally mean when they say outside dogs.

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and for some fun facts - so far in hamilton, with our 4 hospitals, our dog bites resulting in medical attention run like such:

chihuahuas, toy poodles, other toy breeds*: 846 bites requiring attention
cocker spaniels: 43 bites requiring attention
golden retrievers: 17 bites requiring attention
labrador retrievers: 8 bites requiring attention
"pitt bull type dogs"** : 3 bites requiring attention
other dogs: 27 bites requiring attention

these numbers are pulled from the admittance records (not actually publicly available, per se, but not confidential either - have a friend who is in university headed toward being a doctor, and the stat sheets are a regular part of her course.***) and requiring attention is essentially stating that they required stitches.

* i added all the toy breeds together for ease. of them, over 300 of the bites were from chihuahuas, with the next runner being 250+ from toy poodles. the others were a mixture; pugs, min pins, shitzus, etc.

** not quite sure what a "pitt bull type" dog is. thinking some folks need a big book of dog breeds.

*** despite not being on the list, apparently one of her professors ranted about how dangerous "mastiffs, rottweilers and dobermans can be". she was telling me this as Ozzy was attempting to lick her to death.

now, i find it interesting that, unless rottweilers are "other" (by other i think they meant mixed breeds) there have been 0 confirmed rottweiler bites in hamilton this year. pretty good record, eh?

sorry for the long post, but i haven't yet figured out how to quote multiple posts in one response, and i thought the local dogbite stats were interesting.

[Wags2Whiskers]

Originally Posted by poohbearsmom

HUH? A three week old pup is hardly aggressive. They are *just* becoming aware of their surroundings!!!!! Hell, the brainwaves don't start waving until 21 days! Whoever deems a 3 week old puppy aggressive needs to be put down. Talk about trigger happy!

I can vouch for the person that said that very young puppies can be agressive. In most cases, No, but when it comes to Terrier breeds, they're dominant basically as soon as the eyes open!

They can be quite nasty too. After all, at least Rottweilers don't bite when we groom them!!

[paiton]

i think on the calgary news it was stated that the most dog bites were from yellow labs, and labs in general, as people have been conditioned to associate these dogs for their gentleness. this is why they are so popular among families with children.
-they have teeth just like any other dog

[damp]

Originally Posted by Wags2Whiskers

I can vouch for the person that said that very young puppies can be agressive. In most cases, No, but when it comes to Terrier breeds, they're dominant basically as soon as the eyes open!

Are you saying that aggression is = dominance ????

[fostermom]

Originally Posted by Mick Trainer

Either way, they are more likely to become territorial and bite. Just out of interest what is it about being outside (not chained) do you think makes a dog more territorial about it's yard than a dog that is kept inside does towards it's home?

One thought... inside the house, a dog is almost always with it's owner who hopefully the dog defers to...in a yard, the dog is usually by itself so becomes more territorial?????

[damp]

Originally Posted by fostermom

One thought... inside the house, a dog is almost always with it's owner

Don't you work???.... or go shopping, go out for dinner and go to meet friends and family, go with your kids to watch them doing their sport etc. etc. ?????????????????????