are dogs capable of complex thoughts??

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by Cdn1050

I find it hard to believe that a bunch of people would stand around video taping person having seizures to train a dog. JMO

They train service dogs for epileptics using scent, as the chemicals in the body change just prior to a seizure.

I'm sure they had a button on the phone *speed dial* for 911?

This is a dog that was trained to give certain behaviors. Nothing more, nothing less. Obviously, he was trained sufficiently to perform those behaviors when needed. Good dog.

While dogs do learn from mimicking, and dogs can figure out if we can use a doorknob, they can too (if they're smart dogs). That's not rocket science, kids. Certain young pups in my home have attempted to get out of crates by manipulating the latches with their teeth/tongue. The behavior extinguished when the pup was not rewarded. They're smart, sure, but not like we are. That's not a bad thing.

Cunning is a wonderful word, and applicable to dogs.

As damp has stated, many of the behaviors that are displayed are displayed because they get the dog what the dog wants, and they are linked to survival in some way or another.

I think we owe it to dogs to respect them for WHAT they are.... NOT humans. Why is that a bad thing?

[damp]

Originally Posted by Cdn1050

No, they didn't show a video of the dog calling 911 while the owner was having a seizure. They were able to prove this by the 911 operator giving her end of the story of the dog calling and consistently barking, then the EMS medics coming to door and finding as they were walking up to the door, the dog was unlocking it to let them in.

The operator heard a dog barking on the phone and the EMS saw the dog opened the door! That are the facts…right?
And all the rest is all suppositions! Right?

So no one knows if the dog e.g. was so scared and by an accident hit the phone and barked it's stupid, scared (or intelligent) head of!

I could say and assume, it was the person having the seizure, who called 911 before the collapse. (Many people can feel and have “warnings” / “aura” before a seizure)

(Again I assume) but I would think this dog was trained a bit to do service and assist the owner. (I would find it smart and realistic to train my dog to act if I or any in the house suffered from epileptic seizures!)

Dog saves woman's life by calling 911 (October 29)
When Leana Beasley of Richland, Washington, fell out of her wheelchair, her service dog, Faith, called 911 by pushing a speed-dial button on Beasley's phone with her nose.

Beasley, 45, who suffers from grand mal seizures, had trained Faith with the help of the Assistance Dog Club of Puget Sound to call for help in the case of emergencies. The 4-year-old Rottweiler barked into the receiver until the 911 dispatcher sent help. Then she opened the door when responders arrived.

It must be wonderful to have a service dog when one need it! Good dog!!!
And it is amazing what a dog can be TRAINED to do!

[Karyn]

Dogs are like humans in that they learn what is needed to survive and thrive in a given enviroment. Does a dog aruge about God? The meaning of Life? I really don't know if they do. They do argue about politics - who gets be Alpha!

[chivas]

With all the horrible things humans do to each other and animals, I think maybe dogs ARE the superior ones at times. And I would think they wouldn't want to be compared to humans, its not that great a thing.

[Obelix]

A dog is no human and can't act (or think) that way.A dog acts and lives by learned and trained patters(some of these patters are innate) .A lot of scientific studies have been done on this matter and some dogs are capable of solving a problem,after they learned how to do it.There was a famous horse that could count ,but after a thorough studie of this 'gift" the result was that the animal reacted on a lift of the eye-brow of the owner.

[fostermom]

I think one problem is that we are comparing how dogs think with how we think...and deciding since dog's don't think like us, they aren't capable of complex thought....this article explains it fairly well:Understanding Dogs Abilities

Understanding Dogs Abilities
I cannot tell you how many times People have said to me that their Dog thinks it is human and I always give the same answer "No it doesn't it thinks you're a dog." Although not strictly true it serves to emphasize that dogs are not humans in little furry coats.

If we could teach a dog to draw and give the concept of "God" it would draw God as a dog. Many so called dog trainers and countless owners have a mistaken perception of what really constitutes a dog and have expectations far above their actual ability.

Some people believe that their pets are able to understand complex thought patterns, and comprehend our moral and ethical codes; they assume a dog's level of understanding is on a par with our own. Dogs work on drive levels and instinct. It is vital to keep in mind that they do not have the capacity to comprehend the complex thought processes that bring us to understand human emotions, language and behaviour.

There is a scientific name for this Anthropomorphism: The textbook definition of anthropomorphism is "to assign emotion or thought patterns to animals or objects, which are incapable of achieving such dimensions". This is like explaining that a vine climbs up the tree to get a better view.

I believe that anthropomorphism is one of the main reasons we find immense difficulty communicating successfully with our pets. So why do we do it? Humans find it easier to relate to something when they see their own emotions and thought patterns into the actions of their animals.

Using the vine illustration, this is an example of projection. Projection is a psychological phenomenon in which one projects their feelings upon others, animals, or objects. This is useful in everyday life for it takes the guesswork out of reality. Instead of constantly contemplating why something is as it is, you simply put it into context with how you think and your everyday life.

Dogs are capable of linking ideas together, but are incapable of linking actions that are separated by time. If for example a dog makes a mess during your absence there is no point in telling the dog off or rubbing its nose in it, which to my mind is barbaric, you wouldn't rub a child's nose is a soiled nappy? and even if you did what learning process would the child get?

The dog's brain cannot link the action with any passage of time. So many people say, "He knows he has done wrong" or "He looks as guilty as hell". No he doesn't he looks submissive because he can read your body language and is aware you are annoyed, but not why. Their brains are not formulated to feel guilt as we perceive it.

A dog's brain is much smaller than a humans, especially in the upper part of the brain called the cerebrum - the portion of the brain associated with intellectual functions such as speech, memory, consciousness, and logical and emotional thought.

Dogs cannot understand human language. It is far more important to use sound patterns, intonation, facial and body language as a form of communication. A dog wants to please and all learning should be based on positive reinforcement. We should be aware that a large part of a dog's brain is occupied with sensory activity, particularly the interpretation of scent.

Instinct?

Dogs natural instinct plays a vital role and often it is difficult to understand why so few dog owners cannot differentiate between instinct and intelligence. Instinct is an urge from within. Instinct makes a dog act in certain ways and has no connection with intelligence.

Dogs first instinct is to survive, when a pup is born he squirms about until he finds a teat and then sucks it. This does not require intelligence or a learning process it is purely instinctual. The maternal instinct tells the female to clean up the foetal membrane, and in the first 3 or 4 weeks to also eat the pup's faeces in case wild animals smell them and kill the pups.

Of course we know that no predators are going to attack the litter but try explaining that to the mother? She is not taught these actions, she has not seen another female do it. It is instinct. Most instincts provide pleasure to the dog, and because it associates the action with pleasure, the instinct grows stronger with usage.

This is the basis of all training to harness your pet's instincts and shape it's behaviour patterns so that it is acceptable to what we perceive as our requirements.

Instinct can be strengthened, weakened or even diverted. However, if an instinct is not present in the first place it cannot be added, and it cannot be taken away. It might lie dormant, but once developed it can never be weakened. A dog with an obsession for chasing cyclists can be controlled by shaping its behaviour, obedience training and by providing alternative outlets for it's energy.

The same if a dog is corrected the first time he chases another dog or a jogger it may give up the idea, but if it is allowed to chase joggers or dogs then this instinct becomes much stronger and can then become a problem behaviour that is difficult or even impossible to cure.

A second article takes a different approach and seems to come up with a different conclusion: 'Dogs Can Classify Complex Photos In Categories Like Humans Do' by ScienceDaily - RichardDawkins.net

Dogs Can Classify Complex Photos In Categories Like Humans Do
by ScienceDaily
Reposted from:
Dogs Can Classify Complex Photos In Categories Like Humans Do


ScienceDaily (Nov. 29, 2007) — Like us, our canine friends are able to form abstract concepts. Friederike Range and colleagues from the University of Vienna in Austria have shown for the first time that dogs can classify complex color photographs and place them into categories in the same way that humans do. And the dogs successfully demonstrate their learning through the use of computer automated touch-screens, eliminating potential human influence.

In order to test whether dogs can visually categorize pictures, and transfer their knowledge to new situations, four dogs were shown landscape and dog photographs, and expected to make a selection on a computer touch-screen.

In the training phase, the dogs were shown both the landscape and dog photographs simultaneously and were rewarded with a food pellet if they selected the dog picture (positive stimulus). The dogs then took part in two tests.

In the first test, the dogs were shown completely different dog and landscape pictures. They continued to reliably select the dog photographs, demonstrating that they could transfer their knowledge gained in the training phase to a new set of visual stimuli, even though they had never seen those particular pictures before.

In the second test, the dogs were shown new dog pictures pasted onto the landscape pictures used in the training phase, facing them with contradictory information: on the one hand, a new positive stimulus as the pictures contained dogs even though they were new dogs; on the other hand, a familiar negative stimulus in the form of the landscape.

When the dogs were faced with a choice between the new dog on the familiar landscape and a completely new landscape with no dog, they reliably selected the option with the dog. These results show that the dogs were able to form a concept i.e. 'dog', although the experiment cannot tell us whether they recognized the dog pictures as actual dogs.

The authors also draw some conclusions on the strength of their methodology: "Using touch-screen computers with dogs opens up a whole world of possibilities on how to test the cognitive abilities of dogs by basically completely controlling any influence from the owner or experimenter." They add that the method can also be used to test a range of learning strategies and has the potential to allow researchers to compare the cognitive abilities of different species using a single method.

[mikimm]

This really has turned into a great thread full of important information. I agree that dogs respond to their world in species dependent ways. They have to be intelligent to navigate successfully in our world as well as their own. They communicate with us and each other. They learn and they also teach. If they didn't do these things, they wouldn't be such a thriving species and "mans' best friend."

When the dogs were faced with a choice between the new dog on the familiar landscape and a completely new landscape with no dog, they reliably selected the option with the dog. These results show that the dogs were able to form a concept i.e. 'dog', although the experiment cannot tell us whether they recognized the dog pictures as actual dogs.

I think this study is flawed, though. I don't think it shows dogs categorizing at all. Dogs readily recognize dogs and prefer to interact with dogs. I'd be more amazed if some of the dogs preferred to select landscapes over dogs in the pictures.