are dogs capable of complex thoughts??

[cerulean]

I don't know if this qualifies as "complex thought", but it's definately intelligent.

*********
ASPCA Dog of the Year 2007 - Toby
North East, Maryland

Debbie Parkhurst was enjoying an apple in the company of her two-year-old golden retriever, Toby, when a piece of the fruit became lodged in her throat. Parkhurst began to beat on her own chest in an effort to dislodge it. Toby quickly pushed her to the ground and jumped up and down on her chest until the apple came up.
In 2005, Parkhurst rescued the golden retriever from a grim fate in a dumpster.

[Ninasmom]

I think dogs are like people in that there are differing degrees of intelligence. Some dogs are just 'smarter' than others; some are not very bright.

When DH used to travel for work (3/4 weeks a month) and before our son was born, the dogs and cat had what I would call their 'strategic defense plan'. Dasher would stay mid-staircase all night, Rogan was just at the top of the stairs out of sight and Nina positioned herself facing the door of the bedroom. On more than one occasion DH came home in the middle of the night after catching an earlier flight. Dasher would launch himself onto my husband; as DH would be pulling the cat off of him, Rogan would stand up, ready to attack (on more than one occasion, DH had a chow attached to his arm for a mili-second) and Nina would jump on the bed, face the door and growl softly. Neither dog barked. Ever. As soon as they identified him, usually by a "You idiots! It's me!", they all went to their 'normal sleeping spots' in the house - completely different locations.

Two things solved this 'problem' - DH stopped travelling and until he stopped, he would start talking to the animals before he entered the house, using their names, etc... then, the cat would greet him at the door, purring; Rogan would look up and go back to sleep and Nina wouldn't move.

To me - that's intelligence. I could have never trained that type of military precision.

[Karyn]

Originally Posted by Ayoka

First of all...Philosophy major here...lol

I think there's a difference between being able to solve problems and having a conscience...(i.e. knowing right from wrong) I would suggest that dogs can solve complex problems (so can crows, dolphins and other animals) but if a dog was presented with the dog equivalent of a wallet full of cash - say a steak - on the street/sidewalk - he wouldn't ask himself where it came form or if was someone elses or wether they needed that steak to stay alive or feed their children - he'd just eat it! A human - even if they decided to keep the wallet would know they had taken something that belonged to someone else and would likely not divulge how they came into the money to others.

Have you been reading the papers lately? Enron - Jeff Skilling is appealing the verdict, the mortgage crisis? Some people don't know right from wrong either. The only wrong is when they get caught. I would not bet too much on human ethics. There are many instances of cross species altruism.

[RottieGirl86]

I'd be careful to not mistake cunning with intellingence.

Dogs can be trained to do complex tasks and can mimic human behaviors.

I say 'bone' Athena runs to the freezer. why? she's reading my non verbal cues as well as inflection to my voice. Real smarts would be her saying bone to me and then getting one for herself. She is only displaying a conditioned response to a behavor pattern born over the past 5 years when I started buying and freezing marrow bones. It's cute & I laugh, but it doesn't mean she knows what 'bone' actually means 5 minutes later or if someone else said it & a freezer/fridge wasn't around.

[Xena's Daddy]

Originally Posted by chivas

Chivas knew the difference and name of many of her toys, which she had tons of. I would give her a new toy, tell her what it was (ex. MONKEY), then a couple days later - tell her to get her monkey out of her quite full toybox, about 85% of the time she got the right one, if it WAS the wrong one I would say "no go get the MONKEY" and she would drop the wrong toy and then always get the right one. I dont know if Chivas was exceptionally bright just because she WAS or if because we spend so much time with her.

That's so funny.......my Xena does the same thing!! I've always been quite amazed by it. And of course, no one ever believes me...so I show people whenever I get the chance! They are always stunned by it!!

Now it's not like I've never actually sat & trained her what each toy was, but just from having a bunch of them around that I call by name when I first give them to her, she quickly picked up on it & can even recognize a brand new one before I tell her what it is!! If I bring home a new duck for example, even if it's a different color/type or brand, that darn dog knows it's a duck! We even had a cheesy little one that looked more like a cartoon character duck once, and she still knew it was a duck!!

And squirrels, monkeys, (She LOVES Monkeys!) balls, bones, sticks, she even had a monster once. (I don't even know what it really was, just some weirded out little creature that roared) But you tell her to 'get the monster', that's what she comes back with!!

Good stuff..............

She also knows the difference between the words 'smell it', 'hear it', and 'see it'. I have proven this to myself just to be sure!! Amazing animals!!!

[cerulean]

Of course, this brings up he question of "which species is truly intelligent". Humans define intelligence as the kinds of thinking that we are best at (we write novels about murder, we create reality TV shows, we argue endlessly about our political systems...).

But DOGS, well ummm.... no genocide, no child sexual abuse, no corporate greed, no fashion statements, no wars......
.....lots of play, unconditional love, honest emotions, simple living, desire to avoid conflict.....

What is intelligence, complex thought, moral ethics ?? Maybe they're a whole lot smarter than we think they are, they just don't need to prove it all the time.

Just speculating....

[felicityjay]

now i believe that fern is actually intelligent and really seems to be able to judge some right from wrong... my friends that haven't seen it themselves think i'm mad of course (i didn't really think dogs could be that clever before either!) She definitely understands some complex sentences.

the first time i put her toys in a box with a latch on my friends were round - she quietly sat watching as i did it. I was just speaking to my friends not really paying any attention to her. the latch needs pulling out and flipping up at the same time and then the lid needs lifting. As soon as the last toy was in the box Fern stood up walked over and used her mouth to actually pull out up and lift the latch and then lid!!!!!

she will openly chew things but if she has stolen something she will hide it in her mouth and sneak out and stop chewing everytime you look at her!!!! hilarious! also she will just lick something she has been chewing if she shouldn't have been as if she was just doing that all along!

there are soooo many different examples...

what is a conscience? each dog def has a different personality even before they have been trained and some are def naughtier than others! one dog we know is a real peace keeper and if some other dogs are being naughty or snappy she stands between them and nudges them away and will even try to distract them with sticks! why would she do that if she didn't think it was wrong???!!! they aren't attacking her!!!!

[damp]

Originally Posted by cerulean

But DOGS, well ummm.... no genocide, no child sexual abuse, no corporate greed, no fashion statements, no wars......
.....lots of play, unconditional love, honest emotions, simple living, desire to avoid conflict.....

*So you have never heard of dogs killing other dogs, animals or humans? (It's called bad temperament and/or lack of socialization/training/opbringing or simply prey drives )

*So you don’t think a male will mate any bitch in heat and also a 6 months old bitch or even his own daughter or other females in his dogfamily? (It's called a natural drive! and survival capacity of the species)

*So you don’t think a dog will defend/fight for e.g a toy, bone or food? (It's called resourse guarding or food aggression)

*So you don’t think e.g. growls and disobedience etc. are “fashion statements” (It's called dominance or lack of leadership)

*So you think dogs live in peace? I bet you have never experienced a dogfight. (It's called war on death and life)

Dogs act by instincts, drives, senses and experiences (good or bad)

[damp]

Originally Posted by Cdn1050

That's a good question. I saw on the news a few years ago, a lady who had an epileptic seizure. Her Rottweiler dialed 911, barked into the phone until medics arrrived. Then the dog unlocked & opened the door to allow the ambulance medics in. How does the dog know to do this?

You can't keep test training the dog by making people have seizures for the dog to learn this behaviour. I would think that in the middle of a person having a seizure, there would be no time for training. As that person would need medical assistance asap.

It would all depend on, how many people are around the person in need when he/she is having a seizure; one to take care of the person and another to teach the dog to use the phone and what else to do!

By the way:
There must have been a bunch of people around to tape the scenario you talk about. So if a person can just stand and film a person having an epileptic seizure and a dog calling 911, how come you don’t think there once were people around to teach the dog what to do???????????????

However I find it hard to see… (no matter if the dog was trained or not) how a Rottweiler nose or paw can hit one of those small number buttons on a phone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (But I know, you can make short cuts on modern phones…. just hit one accidental botton and hold it just a bit and you get the number that was programmed for the action "hit and hold"!

PS:
Having epileptic seizures normally don't need medical assistance…

(but perhaps the patient needs assistance when he/she wakes up; to go back home/ to go to bed (now and then) yes she/he needs medical care because of falling, but that is considered a side effect to epilepsy)

[Cdn1050]

Originally Posted by damp

It would all depend on, how many people are around the person in need when he/she is having a seizure; one to take care of the person and another to teach the dog to use the phone and what else to do!

By the way:
There must have been a bunch of people around to tape the scenario you talk about. So if a person can just stand and film a person having an epileptic seizure and a dog calling 911, how come you don’t think there once were people around to teach the dog what to do???????????????

However I find it hard to see… (no matter if the dog was trained or not) how a Rottweiler nose or paw can hit one of those small number buttons on a phone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (But I know, you can make short cuts on modern phones…. just hit one accidental botton and hold it just a bit and you get the number that was programmed for the action "hit and hold"!

PS:
Having epileptic seizures normally don't need medical assistance…

(but perhaps the patient needs assistance when he/she wakes up; to go back home/ to go to bed (now and then) yes she/he needs medical care because of falling, but that is considered a side effect to epilepsy)

This was on the news a few years ago. So I had to Google to find the article to get the exact details. Unfortunately the article is short and doesn't give too much details. There was a speed dial button for the dog to push. The woman does suffer from epilepsy, but I find it hard to believe that a bunch of people would stand around video taping person having seizures to train a dog. JMO


7. Dog saves woman's life by calling 911 (October 29)

When Leana Beasley of Richland, Washington, fell out of her wheelchair, her service dog, Faith, called 911 by pushing a speed-dial button on Beasley's phone with her nose.

Beasley, 45, who suffers from grand mal seizures, had trained Faith with the help of the Assistance Dog Club of Puget Sound to call for help in the case of emergencies. The 4-year-old Rottweiler barked into the receiver until the 911 dispatcher sent help. Then she opened the door when responders arrived.

CNN.com - Beer-guzzling bears and other strange tales - Dec 27, 2004

[damp]

Originally Posted by Cdn1050

but I find it hard to believe that a bunch of people would stand around video taping person having seizures to train a dog. JMO

Ahh, I see….. but, it is ok to video tape a human having an epileptic seizure JUST to show and to try to convince that dogs have “complex thoughts”!

[Nishasmom]

Originally Posted by damp

Ahh, I see….. but, it is ok to video tape a human having an epileptic seizure JUST to show and to try to convince that dogs have “complex thoughts”!

I don't think the episode was caught on video tape. They took the audio tape from the 911 call.

[Reaper08]

There was a recent study that tested the intelligence of dogs and they found that a dog applies deductive reasoning to solve certain problems. One of the dogs studied was a famous border collie in Germany. This dogs knows something like 350 words, were as the average dog recognizes about 200 hundred and some. Well this bordie collie can pick out any of his toys when given the name of the toy, not all that exciting, but when they hide in a new toy and tell him to get the "fish" and has never been trained to get the "fish" he searches through all his toys and brings the one he has never seen. That was a thought process only believed to be had by humans.

[bigdogweilerx2]

Yes I do! My one Female got up and ran over to a freinds baby just lerning to walk and the baby held onto her and kept her from falling,Another time woke us up when our house was full of smoke from a nearby house on fire(smokedetectors didn't go off!)Also stayed by the door to the cellar for most of the day,till I went down to the basement to find the cellar had 8" of water from a hole in the hot water heater.
But the best I herd was a firemen gave a rottie(smokie) to enougher firefighter for saving his life. He liked him so much he got enougher one.One day on a walk toand into the woods ,Smokie cept laying down every little way on there walk.He finly said lets go back.When he got inside he fell to the ground and Smokie brought his cell phone over to him and he was able to call for help and saved his masters life!

[Cdn1050]

Originally Posted by damp

Ahh, I see….. but, it is ok to video tape a human having an epileptic seizure JUST to show and to try to convince that dogs have “complex thoughts”!

No, they didn't show a video of the dog calling 911 while the owner was having a seizure. They were able to prove this by the 911 operator giving her end of the story of the dog calling and consistently barking, then the EMS medics coming to door and finding as they were walking up to the door, the dog was unlocking it to let them in.