Is it really a Rottweiler?

[JoJo]

No one is putting Otis down. The whole problem with all this "attitude" is that Otis brought this upon himself thru his introduction. Now he must deliver the goods.

have been reading this forum for a few months now and I must say, "there are a lot of people here that shouldn't even own a dog, let alone a breed like a Rottweiler".

It is not my intention to offend anyone, and I sincerely mean that, but some of the comments in regards to how to "fix" some of the problems they are having with their Rottweilers is truly disturbing. I will try to share my experiences with training this wonderful breed, and some of the lessons learned while doing so. I sincerely hope that my input will be of some help to you.

This forum has seen their share of "wannabe's" who come in here and try to give advise. The problem is that it's not sound, safe advise to be giving for the whole world to read. Therefore putting the safety of the owner in jeopordy and/or the dog. The forum members have a good sense of taking care of these problems all on their own. Now granted, Otis may very well know dog training (military style) but those dogs are totally different (temperament) then our dogs, i.e. show, trial or likewise and he must know that. My point is that one does not come on this forum and start telling all of us that we are clueless and I WILL FIX THE PROBLEMS. How about some proof in the pudding first. Like getting into the Training Forum or Working Forum and converse with us on one of the topics going or start one. So I guess what I'm saying, is just don't talk the talk, walk the walk. Contribute with "sound" knowledge and expect a serious discussion when you do so in return. I also agree with Otis on some of his views like Targonrotts. It just concerns me that he has this misconception of American vs. German Rottweilers. I need an explanation.

[princessmom]

I couldn't have said it any better Jo Jo. I kind of skipped over that first part of the post but I still caught the whole condesending tone. I guess that's why my post started out being sarcastic but as I was writing it I realized that I know very little compared with people who have been dealing with the breed for most of their lives. But yes, the tone did take me back a bit and after I read it I tried to find other posts by "Otis" and see if he always comes off like a jerk or what. I didn't find any others that he posted though maybe I didn't look thoroughly. And what is it that got him so fired up anyway. I mean who is he talking to exactly? I'm just curious.

[jazzking1971]

I'm with you otis. There are guys at the club with real Rotts and they embody what you describe.

[Luvtails]

I don't even know why I am bothering to post here but I just had to add that I have a good friend that breeds 100% German dogs from Germany and actively works and show his dogs in Germany. His dogs have both working schutzhund titles as well as conformation titles earned in Germany and in the US. He lives in the US and when you go to his house ALL of his dogs are easily approached and friendly. They do bark but are not aggressive towards strangers. I would much rather have dogs like these. I don't even know why the OP started this thread, just to start an arguement? This forum is supposed to be for education. I guess I am missing the educational part of the thread.

[Skip]

Otis? Wasn't that the drunk on the "Andy Griffith Show"? Maybe he was drinking a little moonshine before he wrote his first post. The dog pulling the concrete posts out of the ground sounds like one of Otis's (from the tv show) dreams while he was sleeping one off. I'd like to know where the new "Otis" trained all these military dogs. That would be easy to verify.

[dipper]

Wow, I read the post by Otis, read the responses and read the origonal post again.
IMHO what Otis said has great merit---I can't believe the response he is getting!!

After owning rottweilers for 38 years, I could find nothing wrong with his post and nothing to argue about ---really.

Are your dogs not protective?? Are your dogs not wary of strangers and aloof??
My dogs have ALWAYS wanted to be with me and I have said for years that if you want to get the most out of your Rottie, he/she NEEDS to be with you as much as possible.
My dogs LOVE to be with me at all times---not possible of course--but they would love to.
BONDING is a critical part of Rottie ownership!!

Lastly, just what did he say that you can not read in ANY standard describing the Rottweiler??
I saw nothing that OTIS said that is not in line with the standard.

What did he say that was wrong??

Rich

[Skip]

Originally Posted by dipper

Wow, I read the post by Otis, read the responses and read the origonal post again.
IMHO what Otis said has great merit---I can't believe the response he is getting!!

After owning rottweilers for 38 years, I could find nothing wrong with his post and nothing to argue about ---really.

Are your dogs not protective?? Are your dogs not wary of strangers and aloof??
My dogs have ALWAYS wanted to be with me and I have said for years that if you want to get the most out of your Rottie, he/she NEEDS to be with you as much as possible.
My dogs LOVE to be with me at all times---not possible of course--but they would love to.
BONDING is a critical part of Rottie ownership!!

Lastly, just what did he say that you can not read in ANY standard describing the Rottweiler??
I saw nothing that OTIS said that is not in line with the standard.

What did he say that was wrong??

Rich

Sure, there was some info that was accurate about rotts, but for anybody to come here and claim that they have been training working rotts (at a supposedly very high level for the military), should have no problem backing up their credentials. The pulling out concrete posts and dragging them just struck me (also) as a bunch of BS. Legitimate background and training knowledge goes a long way with me. You want your words about this breed to have legitimacy and meaning, then don't make statements that "water down" your knowledge and credentials.

[IJF1]

Originally Posted by dipper

Wow, I read the post by Otis, read the responses and read the origonal post again.
IMHO what Otis said has great merit---I can't believe the response he is getting!!

After owning rottweilers for 38 years, I could find nothing wrong with his post and nothing to argue about ---really.

Some of what he said had merit, some did not IMO.

Are your dogs not protective??

Some have been, some not particularly - maybe they just had very high stimulus thresholds. A junkyard dog can make a noise and look nasty - doesn't mean it has correct temperament.

Are your dogs not wary of strangers and aloof/indifferent??

Actually, none have been wary of strangers. That is not to say that they have been over friendly. Some have been quite aloof.

My dogs have ALWAYS wanted to be with me and I have said for years that if you want to get the most out of your Rottie, he/she NEEDS to be with you as much as possible.
My dogs LOVE to be with me at all times---not possible of course--but they would love to.
BONDING is a critical part of Rottie ownership!!

I think this applies to all breeds

Lastly, just what did he say that you can not read in ANY standard describing the Rottweiler??
I saw nothing that OTIS said that is not in line with the standard.

What did he say that was wrong??

The bit about different standards....?

I personally am waiting for these different standards (German and US) to be posted and the temperament differences highlighted.

[dipper]

OK Skip, you don't believe or like the swing set story and thats fine.

EVERYTHING else Otis said had merit, everything.
For others, don't confuse a protective and aloof dog as an out of control bomb, it's not and it is the behavior listed in the standard---A Rottie is not supposed to fall and fawn at the feet of everyone it meets--read the darn standard!!
Nor is a Rottie supposed to attack and bite at a friendly approach---again, read the standard.

Also, the point about Rottweilers suffering because the owners picked the wrong breed is very very true---it happens all the time---some people get a Rottie and it wasn't what they thought it was or were not ready for a Rottie or had the wrong personality to own a Rottie --Whatever--and the dog suffers or gets put down---happens everyday.

If you want Otis to back up his claims on training fine but don't dismiss everything else he said because it is true.

Rich

[damp]

Oti, I agree with a lot of what you said but:

In the first post you said,

Your Rottweiler is genetically programed to be a Rottweiler. You can't change him into a Golden Retriever.
Every breed is programmed by genes that give him certain behaviors. You can enhance, or possibly redirect some of these behaviors, but you CAN'T eliminate them. Trying to do so will give you a very dangerous and unpredictable animal.

In you next post this,

Apparently you have some really watered down Rots. Let me guess now, all of you are from the United States. You take good German stock, breed it with inferior stock (but they look pretty) and come out with a totally different dog.
Wonderful. You have Lassie in dark and tan.

I just don’t understand your logic!


Regarding temperament: You can’t change the temperament. You can change the dog’s behaviour (caused by bad/poor temperament) with early socialisation and training. Big difference!

[Skip]

The OP just came across as an ass to me. He admitted to knowing very little about breeding, but then felt knowledgable enough to put down the breeding practices of breeders here in the US. Let me say, once again, that there is a several valid statements in what he said, but too much BS in there for me to take him as someone who really has knowledge and cares. IF all he was training (and I have some BIG doubts about that too) were military dogs, then that is also a different group of dogs by nature than most dogs in any country. I have a lot of respect for high level military trainers, but his reply about titling dogs (his please statement) also showed me his lack of respect for those that do well in those areas, those that good breeders strive and train for..

[dipper]

I have never bred a litter of Rottweilers either but I WILL put down the breeding practices of SOME well, MOST of the breeders here in the USA also.

Otis has a good point. Lets look at the breeding practices of many breeders here in the USA OK?

An example of a breeding announcement that you can find in seconds almost anywhere on the net:

Multi V-rated SO and SO's pookie wookie OFA: Good CGC
will be bred to:
Insert (mostly) titled German stud from well known kennel here with many working titles and all health clearances and Ztp etc.

See any thing wrong here?? I do!!
You see, Many good German breeders will sell their studs for a good price but just try to get them to part with a good bitch---rarely happens---they keep those for themselves and their programs don't they??
Again, breeders are quick to tell you how great their bitch is but they have nothing to back it up---nothing.
Do you see a problem here?? Breeding bitches that don't even have a BST or Ztp on them---is this OK?? No eyes no heart no elbow clearances is this OK??
Then you read: puppies will be high drive and suitable for work---PLEASE!!
To many people think the stud brings everything to the party----the bitch brings just as much.

Of course we'll never know about some bitches---they get their "Multi V -ratings" before they are 2 years old and then get ofa clearance and become puppy makers---most people outside of the breeder know little about the temperament of the bitch----see??

Maybe that is why we have so many Rottweilers that don't meet the standard as far as temperament is concerned---maybe we are hiding some questionable temperaments.

Maybe that is what Otis was talking about and you don't have to breed to know the difference!!

Rich

[Skip]

Originally Posted by dipper

I have never bred a litter of Rottweilers either but I WILL put down the breeding practices of SOME well, MOST of the breeders here in the USA also.

Otis has a good point. Lets look at the breeding practices of many breeders here in the USA OK?

An example of a breeding announcement that you can find in seconds almost anywhere on the net:

Multi V-rated SO and SO's pookie wookie OFA: Good CGC
will be bred to:
Insert (mostly) titled German stud from well known kennel here with many working titles and all health clearances and Ztp etc.

See any thing wrong here?? I do!!
You see, Many good German breeders will sell their studs for a good price but just try to get them to part with a good bitch---rarely happens---they keep those for themselves and their programs don't they??
Again, breeders are quick to tell you how great their bitch is but they have nothing to back it up---nothing.
Do you see a problem here?? Breeding bitches that don't even have a BST or Ztp on them---is this OK?? No eyes no heart no elbow clearances is this OK??
Then you read: puppies will be high drive and suitable for work---PLEASE!!
To many people think the stud brings everything to the party----the bitch brings just as much.

Of course we'll never know about some bitches---they get their "Multi V -ratings" before they are 2 years old and then get ofa clearance and become puppy makers---most people outside of the breeder know little about the temperament of the bitch----see??

Maybe that is why we have so many Rottweilers that don't meet the standard as far as temperament is concerned---maybe we are hiding some questionable temperaments.

Maybe that is what Otis was talking about and you don't have to breed to know the difference!!

Rich

I agree that there are TONS of breeders here that shouldn't be breeding. I believe the breed has been GREATLY watered down. I believe ALL of them should be training, working, and titling the dogs to better the breed...another reason why his please reply to titling showed a lack of real understanding and hope for the future of the total rottweiler. Breeding stock must be proven, and titling on both ends does that, along with a lot of other requirements (health clearances, etc.). Again, I agree the breed is being watered down, but if you are going to make those statements (like the OP did), then show what you are doing with your own dogs to change that, and back up the credentials you are so quick to throw out there. To the OP: don't just complain, explain what you are doing to change it. Talk is cheap.

[JonandMichelle]

Originally Posted by Skip

IF all he was training (and I have some BIG doubts about that too) were military dogs, then that is also a different group of dogs by nature than most dogs in any country. I have a lot of respect for high level military trainers

I am curious, since you have been working for the past thirty-some years with the USMC, or for the DOD (I am a bit confused with your statements) as a "Dog Trainer", can you please give me some names with Tat numbers of Lackland’s MWD Rottweiler's and Dobie’s? Hell, for the USMC for that matter. I am befuddled

Also, since you stated your start date as 1965 as a "Dog Handler/Trainer" in a previous post; I believe....I am very active with the Vietnam Dog Handler's Assoc. I can hook you up with the man who holds all the information for the USMC...dogs, trainers, handlers, reunions, and so forth......would only take a phone call or an email. Great group of people. I know for a fact the Assoc. would have your old dogs on file.

[Shelby427]

I agree with you Skip - the OP was rather rude in insinuating that ALL US bred rotties are garbage and "pretty like Paris Hilton" and they only win awards because they are "pretty." And the fact that the OP laughed when someone mentions titles. If he were really here to educate, he wouldn't have called our rotties pathetic because they welcome strangers.